I stuffed up putting frets in a new neck I made - Is it salvageable?

[Splinter_NZ]

Hi Folks,

I'm currently working on my 3rd and 4th electric guitars, and subsequently my 2nd and 3rd necks. Both necks are constructed with a Kauri back and a Kwila fingerboard, only difference being one is 25" scale and the other 27" both with a 12" compound radius. All has gone very well until I put the frets in for the 25" neck (after the 27" had been done mostly without fault).

My problem is that quite a number of the fret ends haven't bitten into the wood, made worse by an attempt to glue the ends in without pressing them in firm enough. It's a bad fret job and I'm not very thrilled about it.
My main mistake is that the frets weren't bent properly or at all before being hammered in. Second mistake was not possessing a fret press system. When I would hammer them in, one end went in then it would pop out again hammering the other side, and it took a number of hits to get it all in. Yes, I am very much a beginner. So about 70% of the fret is seated into the fingerboard, but the ends were raised and bounced when pressed.

I then began to glue then ends down with a few drops of superglue while holding the fret end flat with the face of my hammer. I tried to be efficient and use D clamps which didn't clamp properly due to the neck being a neck and not flat surfaces. Now most of the fret ends have been superglued but are not flush against the fingerboard.

Sorry about photo quality, only iphone but you can seen the problem.

My current plan of action - get a fret press system (wont be hammering again) and attempt to press the frets through the glue and then glue the ends properly. Not sure if that will be successful.

In your experience, is there anything I can do short of tearing the frets out and trying again? Being Kwila, most frets coming out would be bring a considerable number of chips with them, already happened from a few pop outs.

Cheers

[kiwigeo]

Looking at the pics my first question it looks like radius of the frets wasn't tight enough to ensure a good fit when hammered home. My solution as follows:
1. Apply a bit of heat to the frets with a soldering iron and then walk them out with a pair of fret pullers. Work slowly and carefully.
2. Get a piece of MDF and work top of same into a slightly tighter radius than your fretboard using a sanding block. Saw a fret slot into same. This is your "fret bender".
3. Run the fret saw through the fret slots and clear out any glue/debris. Run a piece of fret wire with the tangs filed off through the fret slot to check depth. If you didn't do so prior to original fret job run a three cornered file across the fret to bevel same.
4. Nip off a piece of fret wire and fit it into the fret bender. Tap the fret into the fret slot with your fretting hammer and work the hammer ovr the fret until it's close to the radius of the bender.
5. Run some water into the fret with a fine paint brush (swells the wood a bit and helps with a good grip on the fret tang). Run a bead of AR glue along the fret tang.
6. Position the fret in the slot and hammer in the centre of the fret.
7. Work out from centre to end of fret with the hammer.
8. Clean off any glue squeeze out.

[demonx]

Hard to tell from the pics, but it's possible a bad radius job will have considerable contribution to the fret issue.

Before you fret, you need a good foundation to fret on, this means as perfect radius as you can achieve, good fretslots and a suitable timber.

My advice, scrap both these necks and make new ones using suitable timbers.

As much as I commend you for trying alternate tonewoods, I'd suggest you read, research and understand about the structural importance that certain timbers and the role they play in the fingerboard and neck before you go swapping to non traditional timbers which are not suitable. Think of these two as a practice run and use a different neck wood and a different fingerboard wood on the necks you plan to use.

Also, if you don't hone your skills and ability to radius, a fret press will not help you at all. The fret press caul will only press down to its own curvature, if your fingerboard is all over the place and doesn't match the cauls radius then it'll be even worse than your current fret job.

You'll get hammer vs fret press arguments, I'm a hammer guy. I own strewmac a fret press setup, it lives on a shelf unused. I just prefer the touch of the hammer. I've hammered in thousands and thousands of frets, I've pressed in only hundreds and much prefer the hammer, but you need a suitable dead blow hammer. Quality. It does made a difference. As does how the neck is supported behind the hammer.

If you're fret pressing you still need to have the ability to hammer anyway, so before you go blowing money in a press and cauls, you'll need to hone your hammering skills.

[vandenboom]

In putting another possible approach, fully support Allan & Martins detailed response for quality results. But depending on degree of consistency of fb radius the following may offer an acceptable result.
Make a pretty thick radiused caul long enough to sit just over 1st two frets. Use hardwood.
Sand or even rout about 1cm wide/1 mm deep from the centre of the caul.
Heat the 1st two frets to soften glue .
Sit the caul over 1st 2 frets. Intention is that caul is not making contact with fret centre.
Use strong clamp to pull caul down, using protective caul on underside of necks shaft.
Keep working up fb on pairs of frets.
Eventually the caul will be sitting on 3 frets unless u shorten it.
See how u go....
Sorry for all the words rather than a picture ... sitting on a yacht on hawksbury .. a bit constrained.
Frank

[jeffhigh]

I'd be pulling the frets, get them too hot to comfortably touch with a soldering iron first, then the CA will release.

What do you mean by "a 12" compound radius".
If you truly have a compound radius, matching fret press cauls to the board radius all the way is difficult.
Using the hammer is fine, but the wire needs to be radiussed properly and you are not to Hammer them in but tap them in.
Where the slot is compromised by repeated refretting or attempts like this, I will often wick CA under to retain them, but not until they are fully seated.

[Splinter_NZ]

Looking at the pics my first question it looks like radius of the frets wasn't tight enough to ensure a good fit when hammered home. My solution as follows:
1. Apply a bit of heat to the frets with a soldering iron and then walk them out with a pair of fret pullers. Work slowly and carefully.
2. Get a piece of MDF and work top of same into a slightly tighter radius than your fretboard using a sanding block. Saw a fret slot into same. This is your "fret bender".
3. Run the fret saw through the fret slots and clear out any glue/debris. Run a piece of fret wire with the tangs filed off through the fret slot to check depth. If you didn't do so prior to original fret job run a three cornered file across the fret to bevel same.
4. Nip off a piece of fret wire and fit it into the fret bender. Tap the fret into the fret slot with your fretting hammer and work the hammer ovr the fret until it's close to the radius of the bender.
5. Run some water into the fret with a fine paint brush (swells the wood a bit and helps with a good grip on the fret tang). Run a bead of AR glue along the fret tang.
6. Position the fret in the slot and hammer in the centre of the fret.
7. Work out from centre to end of fret with the hammer.
8. Clean off any glue squeeze out.

Thanks Martin, that's absolute gold. Jeff also suggested pulling the frets and I reckon that's the best way I'm ever going to get a decent fret job on this neck. Good practice for me

[Splinter_NZ]

Hard to tell from the pics, but it's possible a bad radius job will have considerable contribution to the fret issue.

Before you fret, you need a good foundation to fret on, this means as perfect radius as you can achieve, good fretslots and a suitable timber.

My advice, scrap both these necks and make new ones using suitable timbers.

As much as I commend you for trying alternate tonewoods, I'd suggest you read, research and understand about the structural importance that certain timbers and the role they play in the fingerboard and neck before you go swapping to non traditional timbers which are not suitable. Think of these two as a practice run and use a different neck wood and a different fingerboard wood on the necks you plan to use.

Thanks Allan, yes to be honest my homemade radius blocks aren't 100%. I used this method -http://www.buildyourguitar.com/resource ... dblock.htm and it's a careful business to get the side bits attached with the correct depth. How do you make yours?

In regards to the woods I've used, why don't you think Kauri for the neck wood would be any good, structurally? As far as I know, Kauri has been used for many instruments both electric and acoustic, notably Lancaster Guitars for the solid body side of things. And for the Kwila fingerboard, apart from the fairly open grain and brittleness, I don't understand how it could be much worse than similar hardwoods more commonly used. Especially considering these are electric guitars. I'll do some digging through Understanding Wood in the meantime to try and figure how it might behave structurally.

Also, if you don't hone your skills and ability to radius, a fret press will not help you at all. The fret press caul will only press down to its own curvature, if your fingerboard is all over the place and doesn't match the cauls radius then it'll be even worse than your current fret job.

You'll get hammer vs fret press arguments, I'm a hammer guy. I own strewmac a fret press setup, it lives on a shelf unused. I just prefer the touch of the hammer. I've hammered in thousands and thousands of frets, I've pressed in only hundreds and much prefer the hammer, but you need a suitable dead blow hammer. Quality. It does made a difference. As does how the neck is supported behind the hammer.

If you're fret pressing you still need to have the ability to hammer anyway, so before you go blowing money in a press and cauls, you'll need to hone your hammering skills.

Good advice regards to getting the practice and honing skills. I guess a bad job put me off. I'll at least do a few more necks until I'm consistent and see what I reckon for install methodology. The neck wasn't greatly supported in the middle and I could definitely feel it hammering.

Cheers

[Splinter_NZ]

Thanks for the help so far guys, huge help. I'll post some progress pics of my repair effort on this neck. Will start getting them out tomorrow.

Cheers

[demonx]

Just because one builder is using certain timbers doesn't mean it's a good idea. I've seen well known builders using totally unsuitable timbers and all they're doing is proving is either lack of knowledge or that they'd rather take someone's money than build a stable & suitable guitar. There's also an abundance of modern era kids & "YouTube" builders who have watched a few videos and started selling their builds, using the prettiest exotics they can find without ever learning the real importance of a guitars structural design that you learn by being taught or handed down knowledge the old school way. I'm not saying all exotics are no able to be used either, I'm saying that there's reason why and why not to use secrets in timbers and you need to read and learn about timbers as a craftsman.

With necks, the softer and spongier the timber, the neck will be like rubber. It'll need setups every time you look at it. It'll be terrible under tension. The neck needs to resist string tension. Acoustic builders can get away with softer timbers than electric builders because the neck is so short, practically half the length of an electric neck, however once you start lengthening the neck the rules change, flex increases, you mentioned building a 27" neck, at that length even hard maple is quite flexible, so soft woods like kauri won't stand a chance. In my earlier hobby building days I experimented using various timbers like Huon etc testing all these rules, Huon being very similar to kauri and I can assure you I never made a second, it's just way too soft. Way too much flex, movement, even with a hard timber on it as a board.

The fingerboard choice is even more important than the neck wood. The fingerboard is the main structure which stiffens the neck. If the fingerboard warps, the neck warps. If the fingerboard is too soft, it won't hold the frets and it won't resist string pull, i could go on and on, but the point is the board choice is super important and you need something which is structurally excellent, will stay straight, hold the frets, these are not attributes that come to mind when I think merbou/Kwila. Great for decks thought, but even then you have to pre drill it or it splits!

About you saying the neck was flexing in the middle while fretting, when you're driving a fret in, there needs to be a support under it and you have to move it every fret you hammer so that it's always supported directly underneath where you are fretting, otherwise you're not driving the fret in properly, it'll bounce. It needs to be a firm, direct hit that is supported from behind.

[Splinter_NZ]

Just because one builder is using certain timbers doesn't mean it's a good idea. I've seen well known builders using totally unsuitable timbers and all they're doing is proving is either lack of knowledge or that they'd rather take someone's money than build a stable & suitable guitar. There's also an abundance of modern era kids & "YouTube" builders who have watched a few videos and started selling their builds, using the prettiest exotics they can find without ever learning the real importance of a guitars structural design that you learn by being taught or handed down knowledge the old school way. I'm not saying all exotics are no able to be used either, I'm saying that there's reason why and why not to use secrets in timbers and you need to read and learn about timbers as a craftsman.

With necks, the softer and spongier the timber, the neck will be like rubber. It'll need setups every time you look at it. It'll be terrible under tension. The neck needs to resist string tension. Acoustic builders can get away with softer timbers than electric builders because the neck is so short, practically half the length of an electric neck, however once you start lengthening the neck the rules change, flex increases, you mentioned building a 27" neck, at that length even hard maple is quite flexible, so soft woods like kauri won't stand a chance. In my earlier hobby building days I experimented using various timbers like Huon etc testing all these rules, Huon being very similar to kauri and I can assure you I never made a second, it's just way too soft. Way too much flex, movement, even with a hard timber on it as a board.

The fingerboard choice is even more important than the neck wood. The fingerboard is the main structure which stiffens the neck. If the fingerboard warps, the neck warps. If the fingerboard is too soft, it won't hold the frets and it won't resist string pull, i could go on and on, but the point is the board choice is super important and you need something which is structurally excellent, will stay straight, hold the frets, these are not attributes that come to mind when I think merbou/Kwila. Great for decks thought, but even then you have to pre drill it or it splits!

About you saying the neck was flexing in the middle while fretting, when you're driving a fret in, there needs to be a support under it and you have to move it every fret you hammer so that it's always supported directly underneath where you are fretting, otherwise you're not driving the fret in properly, it'll bounce. It needs to be a firm, direct hit that is supported from behind.

Thanks Allan, it never would've even crossed my mind to consider the softness of the timber and how it could affect set up etc. Just part of learning I guess. How did you learn about the various attributes of wood relating to instrument making? I gather a fair amount of experimentation?

[demonx]

There's more to it than just the softness, there are several variables which must be considered, however now you have something to read about and research so you can make your own decisions etc.

You asked how I learned. Reading, being in luthiers workshops. More reading. Lots of trial and error and even more reading. That is how I learned!

You asked how I made my radius blocks. I rough my radius on a CNC and then I finish with a stewmac aluminium block. Before my CNC era i used only the aluminium block.

[simso]

Nothing wrong IMO about taping frets in, the way I have always done it, there is taping and then there is hammering, If frets are coming out during the process then the fret slot is too wide, for the tang, there is no tang, the fret material is too hard to contour to the shape of the board or the wood is too soft.

You can always oversize the tang slots, curve the fret and epoxy / glue it in place

Fret press systems are good, but not the answer for this situation IMO

Steve