Glue ?¿?

[mickeyj4j]

Hi all the other day i was in the hardware shop went past the glue isle. There are many types from 2 pot to pva, ados f2 etc etc. I was so overwhelmed even when talking to staff so I left.

What I am wanting to know is what is a good all purpose glue for woodworking and instrument building. And don't mention hot hide glue. This is not a common thing to easily get hold of and for a novice, not doing large amounts of stuff, most of the hhg would go off before i use it. I have a small freezer to store it there. The staff at the hardware shop don't even know what hhg is, they showed me the cheep hoby heat glue gun and glue sticks, oh my.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge on this.

[Steve.Toscano]

Titebond Original!
You can get it at Masters or heaps of online luthier stores stock it aswell.

https://www.masters.com.au/product/9000 ... -473ml.jsp

I only times i use a different glue to titebond is when i glue in abalone or MOP dots for fret markers - then it's super glue, or for carbon fibre under and on falcate braces, then its epoxy.

[kiwigeo]

Different glues for different purposes.

When choosing a glue I ask myself the following:

1. What materials are being glued?
2. Am I likely to want to undo the joint at some time in the future?
3. Is shear strength important (eg bridge).
4. Ease of clean up (hide glue easier to clean up than AR/PVA, epoxy is a pain to clean up)
5. Risks and repercussions of the glue discolouring surrounding wood (eg CA glue in a rosette channel can bleed into surrounding spruce top wood).
6. Desirability of water from water based glues invading wood and causing swelling (eg rosette, fretboard/neck).
7. Do I need a glue with gap filling properties?

Others can probably think of a few others but the above are what I consider when choosing my glues.

[kiwigeo]

And don't mention hot hide glue. This is not a common thing to easily get hold of and for a novice, not doing large amounts of stuff, most of the hhg would go off before i use it. I have a small freezer to store it there.

Hide glue isn't as scarey as it sounds. You don't need a fancy glue pot....a jam jar and a baby bottle warmer is what I use. Storage of the made up glue isn't an issue for me....I only make up enough for the job. You dont need a freezer to store any made up glue...just shove it in your fridge. The great things about hide glue...ease of clean up and ease with which the joint can be un-done (important in some situations). Hide glue also has a high shear strength...its why I use it on my bridges.

[Allen]

Martin has done a great job on describing what you are looking for in a glue.

One glue doesn't do everything you will need in lutherie, but either Titebond original (Red Cap) or HHG are the top contenders for most tasks. I get my HHG from the USA.

While I use a commercial pot for HHG, I saw recently that several luthiers are using those wax heaters that are used to strip hair away for those so inclined. Apparently they can be bought really inexpensively, and don't get too hot, as it's in no ones interest to apply scalding wax to their privates.

[kiwigeo]

While I use a commercial pot for HHG, I saw recently that several luthiers are using those wax heaters that are used to strip hair away for those so inclined. Apparently they can be bought really inexpensively, and don't get too hot, as it's in no ones interest to apply scalding wax to their privates.

....and perfect for a quick Brazillian (and I dont mean Rosewood)

[simonm]

I use both Titebond Original and animal glue. While I tend to say hhg, it is very often bone glue rather than hide glue. Apparently it is a bit hard than hhg when it dries. I am increasing my proportion of hhg vs titebond as time goes by. I still use titebond for centre seams and for binding but for all the bits I think might need repairs at some point I use hhg.

The turning point from using exclusively titebond original was reading Frank Ford's articles about preparing hhg and keeping it in the fridge as mentioned above. I make up a batch as per Frank's instructions but I simply cut it into chunks and store it in the fridge to use. When I need some, I take a chunk or three and pop it in a clean used yoghurt, or similar, plastic cup which I put in a small saucepan of hot water from the kettle holding it to the side with a clothes peg. I periodically replace the hot water when it gets too cool. I keep the glue in a ziplock back inside a screw top jar in the fridge. I don't have a specific time to keep it. Eventually it begins to smell a bit off - at that point I chuck it and start again. When I take it out of the fridge, I dry the bag as it tends to get condensation in it once it hits the air outside the fridge.

Over on the mimf forum one of the regulars at some point mentioned buying 50kg(?) of hhg granules - enough for a lifetime he said. The reasoning was that the characteristics change a bit with every batch - this way he has consistency. I buy by the kilo. Hide/bone glues are by far the cheapest glues you can get here and as Martin said, the easiest to clean up.

I must look into the Brazilian method …

[Jim watts]

If you're looking for one glue to do it all Titebond Original has put together a ton of guitars.

[mickeyj4j]

And don't mention hot hide glue. This is not a common thing to easily get hold of and for a novice, not doing large amounts of stuff, most of the hhg would go off before i use it. I have a small freezer to store it there.

Hide glue isn't as scarey as it sounds. You don't need a fancy glue pot....a jam jar and a baby bottle warmer is what I use. Storage of the made up glue isn't an issue for me....I only make up enough for the job. You dont need a freezer to store any made up glue...just shove it in your fridge. The great things about hide glue...ease of clean up and ease with which the joint can be un-done (important in some situations). Hide glue also has a high shear strength...its why I use it on my bridges.

Understandable but as I stated hhg is not readily available. I remember in woodwork at school we had that glue. I remember the teacher heating it up at start of class. It reminded me of kauai gum. I think they used to make a glue from kauai gum once.

[mickeyj4j]

Different glues for different purposes.

When choosing a glue I ask myself the following:

1. What materials are being glued?
2. Am I likely to want to undo the joint at some time in the future?
3. Is shear strength important (eg bridge).
4. Ease of clean up (hide glue easier to clean up than AR/PVA, epoxy is a pain to clean up)
5. Risks and repercussions of the glue discolouring surrounding wood (eg CA glue in a rosette channel can bleed into surrounding spruce top wood).
6. Desirability of water from water based glues invading wood and causing swelling (eg rosette, fretboard/neck).
7. Do I need a glue with gap filling properties?

Others can probably think of a few others but the above are what I consider when choosing my glues.

Thanks that is a good list to consider.

[mickeyj4j]

Now to find the mentioned posts on hh/bone glue and get an idea. Also where to get in NZ. Why is this type of glue stopped ding sold in hardware stores if it is a good glue and cheaper?¿?

[simonm]

...
While I use a commercial pot for HHG, I saw recently that several luthiers are using those wax heaters that are used to strip hair away for those so inclined. Apparently they can be bought really inexpensively, and don't get too hot, …

I had a look for some on ebay. $15-$40 seems to be the range. I wonder how shoddy they are. Did you notice what brand/style of heater the luthiers were using?

[matthew]

just a few more notes on how I use hide glue these days.

I don't use a glue heater any more. I just prepare what I need for the day and heat it on the spot when i need it. This way it doesn't thicken in the pot, or go dry when i'm not watching, or overheat.

I grind the granules like raw sugar in an electric spice grinder.
I soak a teaspoon of granules in twice the qty of water in a small jar.
As soon as it has soaked up the water - about 5-10 minutes - I cook for 12 seconds in the microwave.
it's ready to use and can be reheated the same way, maybe 5-8 seconds in the microwave.

I hardly use anything else. I buy 192 gram strength granules online 500g at a time. Its cheap, and lasts ages. the dry glue doesn't go off and the mixed stuff keeps well if you keep a lid on it.

[auscab]

In a different section of the family business I work in we sell HHG it gets brought in in 20 to 25 ? kg sacks ,with a guess ? at the exact size . Its imported from NZ , so you should be able to find it over there. It the brown stuff you see in cabinet work / joiners glue , the same stuff they used to use in the vintage guitars Id say , its the same colour .

There is a whole lot of talk about gram strength of these glues , I never read to far into that . because I reckon it BS . The joiners glue I see in one hundred to two hundred year old furniture holding non quater sawn butt joined boards together in non humidity controlled environments like in sheds and what ever, shows its a fantastic glue . Its all about how you use it , the quality of your dry joint has to be good , no gaps . No matter what type of HHG you use.

There are great threads around here somewhere about how to use it , Using small plastic bottles, it is one great way . Just keep it floating in a fresh bowl of hot water is the easiest way to use it with bugger all waste and mess . Glue pots sticks and brushes in jars in heaters is one way . But I use a jar in a bowl to get it ready now , suck it into a bottle the size of an eye drop bottle, and keep that in a bowl with the lid screwed on . When I apply it I finger gauge it on dead on down the middle of what ever I am gluing down , there is no mess and no huge clean up .

Rob

[auscab]

Your post wasn't there when I started writing Matthew , I saw it after I posted so don't think I'm having a go at what your saying about gram strength please .

Rob

[Allen]

...
While I use a commercial pot for HHG, I saw recently that several luthiers are using those wax heaters that are used to strip hair away for those so inclined. Apparently they can be bought really inexpensively, and don't get too hot, …

I had a look for some on ebay. $15-$40 seems to be the range. I wonder how shoddy they are. Did you notice what brand/style of heater the luthiers were using?

No didn't really pay attention to the brand, but they were ones found on eBay.

I get my HHG in 5 or 10 lb orders from =https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/st ... rking Wood. I use mostly the 315 gm strength because it's so fast to grab, but then I live in the tropics so it's quite easy to use here. If you are in a colder climate then it will most likely be very difficult to use, and the 192 gm strength would be more appropriate.

That might seem like a lot, but I go through a fair bit of it with the number of instruments I build.

[matthew]

for HHG newbies ...

http://youtu.be/WBdbTPv172c

useful to look at the consistency as it runs off the brush.

(and Allen I agree with you about gram strength - I just get 192 cos it works for me and I'm used to it ...)

[kiwigeo]

How are people going with getting hide glue into the country? Ive had a good run so far but I know AQIS has jumped on hide glue shipments at times and it seems to be very much down to luck as to whether not they do so.

[matthew]

got mine from LMI, or Metropolitan music, usually in a shipment of other stuff. never had a problem.

[Allen]

I lost one shipment, and Micheal Connor did as well quite a few years ago now. Other than that it's been good.

You can also get it from StewMac in a 1 lb can. Never heard of anyone having trouble with that method.

[kiwigeo]

I suspect the AQIS boys and girls are trained to home in on the word "hide".

[auscab]

Not for Human consumption, unless your in a siege .

Rob

[matthew]

Oh and to the original poster ...

cooking gelatine is the same stuff. High purity, works well. Get it at the supermarket and try it!!

and you CAN eat it!

[mickeyj4j]

Oh and to the original poster ...

cooking gelatine is the same stuff. High purity, works well. Get it at the supermarket and try it!!

and you CAN eat it!

Are you serious?¿?

[kiwigeo]

Oh and to the original poster ...

cooking gelatine is the same stuff. High purity, works well. Get it at the supermarket and try it!!

and you CAN eat it!

Are you serious?¿?

The Davis company in the auscab's photos is located in Christchurch, New Zealand...my home town. Apart from being famous for contributing to the pollution of the Heatchote River they are also famous for their cooking gelatine.