Getting tone woods in NZ

[Yeti]

Hey Guys
This is my first post here and I really hope Im putting this in the right place. Some forums are really strict, and others more relaxed.

Basically the story is this:
I've been living abroad for almost a decade and only recently got up the nerve to start building guitars. I'm moving back to NZ in about 10 months (I really like to plan in advance ) and I've been trying to source places to get non-native and non-pine timber, because I want to start again when I move back.

I know there are the preferred vendors, but I guess I have some very rookie questions as I'm still researching for my first 'proper' (i.e.: from scratch) build which will be a 7 String Charvel San Dimas. Woods I'm looking for are Walnut, Mahogany and ebony or rosewood for the fret board. Any places these can be easily obtained in sizes to work as a body blank.

I figure I could probably get Queensland maple for the neck, but I'm looking for a blank I can cut a 26.5" Baritone neck out of, do the vendors on the site do that?
Is Queensland Maple a good substitute for rock/hard maple?
I was also thinking to saw it into 3 pieces and then glue it for strength.

Also how badly do you get done in NZ on customs for importing wood?

I'd really appreciate your help guys, and if there is a thread dedicated to this sort of thing please point me in that direction, as I'm sorry I couldn't find it.

Thanks guys, and look forward to being around the forum more

[56nortondomy]

Welcome to the forum. This is the right spot for those questions, i'm sure you'll get some good advice from the guys here that have a bit more knowledge than me. Maybe some of the kiwi's can fill you in about the wood importing. Be nice if you let us know your name so we don't have to call you yeti .
Wayne

[Nick]

Welcome to the forum Yeti (do you have a first name? just a little friendlier and we try to be around these parts )
I'm in New Zealand, South Island and don't have too much trouble sourcing timbers. I too started out building (and still build the odd one) electrics for thirty years and my first efforts were pre-internet (yes there was such a time)! So I was made to use locally available timbers or it was nothing, my first complete scratch build had a Mahogany body with Hinau neck and a stained Kwila fingerbaord. Fortunately things have improved immensely and we have companies such as BBS Timbers (my personal favourites) and Timspecs who can provide several hardwood species ideal for building, Rock Maple for necks, Sapele for a Mahogany substitute for bodies and necks, Wenge, Alder or NZ Beech. Unfortunately more specialised timbers such as East Indian Rosewood or really dark Maccassar Ebony aren't available but if you want to use native timbers then Puriri is a beautiful wood.
However, that is not to say you cannot use Rosewood, Importing isn't a hassle as long as the timbers are labeled as "guitar parts" or "guitar woods", the border control authorities have enough nowse to realise that the wood has been processed and isn't likely to harbour bugs, live insects or be riddled with borer. It's the bloody tax collectors you got to watch! Unlike Australia, which has a $1000 limit, New Zealand will charge GST on goods with a total value of only $400 and that includes the cost of postage! The government are also bowing to the pressure of local retailers and this $400 limit will be dropped to zero at some stage in the future, so any goods bought from overseas and arriving as a parcel will incur GST .

[lauburu]

Getting tone woods in NZ can be a bit of a challenge. Not impossible but nearly always expensive.
First of all, don't discount local woods. There are a number of excellent makers in NZ who build with NZ natives. Christian (on this forum) has made some stunning kauri/rimu instruments. Kahikatea makes great tops, mangeao has been used for B&S on guitars, violins, ukuleles, viols, cellos... to produce fantastic results. Puriri is great for fretboards ... etc

Importing tonewoods is not cheap due to freight costs. The Aussies on this forum spend a lot of time complaining about freight costs but they don't know how lucky they are compared to Kiwis. Also, at present, anything bought overseas costing over $400 attracts GST. The govt is looking at changing the rules and charging GST on everything bought overseas. Woods brought in from the UK and USA get through relatively easily. Stuff from Asia, Africa, Sth America is likely to be opened and examined, fumigated etc.

Softwoods. Good quality WRC is relatively easy to find but good quality spruce is next to impossible. Suggest you bring some with you as $50 worth of spruce will cost another $100 to ship to NZ. If you bring in large quantities even for personal use, they'll treat you like a business and charge import duties.

Hardwoods. Asian and Pacific hardwoods are easiest to get and are comparatively affordable. It's possible to buy African and Sth & Nth American hardwoods but it costs a bomb and the quality very much depends on what the various merchants have in stock at the time. Trademe will sometimes bring interesting items to light. Suggest you stock up on a few B&S for projects before you arrive.

Hope this has been useful. I'm just speaking from my experience. Others may have different views.
Miguel

[Yeti]

Hey guys, Ben's the legal name although Yeti's actually a nickname most of my mates call me anyway. I'm used to big international forums and have been out of the antipodes for almost a decade… I forget how approachable we generally are. I suspect when I finally move back it will be a nice change.

Thanks for the replies guys, I didn't know about the GST thing Miguel so thanks for that, I wouldn't mind betting with that wonderful conservative government that was elected it probably will be $ on everything at some point such is life. I'm not really planning on building any acoustics as while I love them, I'm not really much of a player. But your feed back is very helpful… that said I know a company in the UK that uses spruce for their LP JR clones, never played one, but heard good things.

Nick thanks for those links, I didn't know about BBS and Ironically they have an outlet in the town I was born lol. Their wood selection is great news for me. The main thing I wanted to make sure I could get was maple for the neck as pedestrian as it is I really don't like other woods for my necks, Sapele is great as far as I'm concerned for what I want to do as well and I see I can get walnut for the top I wanted to do. My hat goes off to you pre-internet building, I would be screwed if I couldn't google pdf. templates, actually as an aside does anyone know if there is a source of detailed templates available for free on the net? I have a few key ones saved but since I started this endeavour I keep getting ideas and I can see its not just going to be one build…

General questions, can Wenge be used for freeboards easily? Because if so then I can use that in place of Rosewood or Ebony. Or do you have any other suggestions of dark woods or native dark woods that work nicely as fretboards?

I'm not averse to Natives and I'd like to use them in the future, if not as tone woods as a drop top or body inlay or something (I have this SG idea I wanna do one day) but for this build I have a particular aesthetic and tone in mind that as much as possible I'd like to stick too.

Sorry if this is a little rambely, its early in the morning here and I was up most of sunday editing documents for my boss.
Cheers
Ben

[peter.coombe]

Aren't governments great. We are already at a disadvantage because of the distance and the fact that Spruce and Rosewood don't grow here, and tuning machines etc are not manufactured here. Then just to drive the nail in harder they charge us to import things that are not available locally. The latest news is that the Australian government is going to lower the GST threshold to $500, which is going to make it more difficult for me to get tuning machines direct from the Rubner factory in Germany. It is now pretty much impossible to export anything any more! I don't know about NZ, but we don't just get slugged with GST, but also a processing charge and import duties if it worth more than $1000, soon to be $500. Does not make sense to me to slug the consumer 10% to try and stop imports when the imported goods are either not available locally or less then half the price overseas. Not only that, but it costs government more to collect the loot than what they actually collect if it is worth less than $1000. Having imported a vintage instrument over the $1000 limit, I know the system they have in place in Australia to collect the GST and extra charges is very slow and incredibly inefficient. I suppose the current mob in power listen more to big retail businesses begging for what effectively is a subsidy, than us poor folk.

[DarwinStrings]

Kiwis and Aussies don't mind a bit of a whine. I was in a pub in London and a discussion about the Australian expression "whinging Poms" had come up, I certainly didn't start it but was eventually used as a source for Australian cultural accuracy, I tried just looking at the ground but they persisted. They came to the conclusion that Australians had invented this deception to cover their own tracks and that the fact of the matter was that Australians and New Zealanders whined more than the British. I was asked to answer the charge (not that I could speak for the Kiwis though), I had to be honest and tell them that anything they can do we can do better.

[kiwigeo]

Kiwis and Aussies don't mind a bit of a whine. I was in a pub in London and a discussion about the Australian expression "whinging Poms" had come up, I certainly didn't start it but was eventually used as a source for Australian cultural accuracy, I tried just looking at the ground but they persisted. They came to the conclusion that Australians had invented this deception to cover their own tracks and that the fact of the matter was that Australians and New Zealanders whined more than the British. I was asked to answer the charge (not that I could speak for the Kiwis though), I had to be honest and tell them that anything they can do we can do better.

When a plane load of Poms lands at an Australian Airport....the whining continues after the pilot has shut down the engines

[needsmorecowbel]

It will be bloody awful if Abbott gets the taxable threshold lowered to $500...

Next thing he'll be passing some legislation to allow him to use people's super funds to start new mining projects.

Stu

[Ormsby Guitars]

Aren't governments great. We are already at a disadvantage because of the distance and the fact that Spruce and Rosewood don't grow here, and tuning machines etc are not manufactured here. Then just to drive the nail in harder they charge us to import things that are not available locally. The latest news is that the Australian government is going to lower the GST threshold to $500, which is going to make it more difficult for me to get tuning machines direct from the Rubner factory in Germany. It is now pretty much impossible to export anything any more! I don't know about NZ, but we don't just get slugged with GST, but also a processing charge and import duties if it worth more than $1000, soon to be $500. Does not make sense to me to slug the consumer 10% to try and stop imports when the imported goods are either not available locally or less then half the price overseas. Not only that, but it costs government more to collect the loot than what they actually collect if it is worth less than $1000. Having imported a vintage instrument over the $1000 limit, I know the system they have in place in Australia to collect the GST and extra charges is very slow and incredibly inefficient. I suppose the current mob in power listen more to big retail businesses begging for what effectively is a subsidy, than us poor folk.

I have never experienced the number of issues you continue to mention about importing or exporting, and I bet the volumes we do are more (over 150 to be exported this year).

If something is to be exported again, you can claim it back.

5% on the wholesale cost of parts, which are but a small part of the overall finished product, are nothing. It's not even WORTH claiming back $50.

$1000 worth of tuners to me, equates to 20 instruments and therefore $100,000. $50 in import costs is fine by me.

$1000 worth of Rubner tuners gets you 6 sets. Im sure the $8 import costs can be absorbed in to each $3500 build.

[Nick]

The latest news is that the Australian government is going to lower the GST threshold to $500, which is going to make it more difficult for me to get tuning machines direct from the Rubner factory in Germany. It is now pretty much impossible to export anything any more! I don't know about NZ, but we don't just get slugged with GST, but also a processing charge and import duties if it worth more than $1000, soon to be $500.

Same here Peter and the idea to dropping it to $0 is that the local retailers are suffering because with the advent of online shopping more and more people are shopping in the larger, more competitive markets such as the States and bringing in identical goods for maybe a half to two thirds cheaper. I can understand the retailer's concerns as it's their livelihood but the $400 limit already nets a fair income for them, as you say, the costs to administer the lower amounts must be more than is collected...crazy.
The silly thing is that usually the purchaser can still bring in goods, incur GST and other penalties and is happy to and expecting to pay because the goods are still cheaper than off the shelf locally. So overseas purchases haven't slowed at all, infact I wouldn't mind betting there is now more spent offshore than at your local shopping centre.

General questions, can Wenge be used for freeboards easily? Because if so then I can use that in place of Rosewood or Ebony. Or do you have any other suggestions of dark woods or native dark woods that work nicely as fretboards?

Wenge is a very stringy, open pored wood and not one I'd want to use as an unfinished fingerboard. It can give you a 2 inch splinter just by looking at the stuff!
It has been used as a neck material but I expect has been well sealed below layers of epoxy and jam (what I call any clear solvent based finish). Christian would be the NZ native timber expert and he may see this and chime in but as I mentioned, Puriri is a very nice native that is well suited to fingerboards, it's not Black like ebony or dark reddy brown like Rosewood, but it can be found in a nice chocolate colour. Infact here's a link to a nice blurb on Christian's website all about NZ natives suitable for luthiery purposes http://www.christiandruery.com/tonewood.php

[christian]

Hi Ben,

All the best with the move back home, it will be good to have another kiwi guitarmaker on here. It's all pretty much been covered by the good chaps above. Importing wood or anything for that matter is just getting ridiculously expensive. But if you can't buy thing thing you need here, (which is often) what other option do you have!

I used to import timbers and or buy from timber merchants here, but found I couldn't control the quality as I wanted eg asking for quartersawn anything is was often received with blank stares. I made the switch to pure natives and haven't looked back. We have some incredible tonewoods in New Zealand that cover all of a guitars unique requirements.
for instance: In my opinion Kahikatea is as good as any spruce you will find anywhere. Granted sometimes our woods can be difficult to source, but often well worth the work to hunt them down.
But if you want just one off sets of natives and exotics try www.rarefind.co.nz/instruments.html
Actually I think Nick introduced me to them.
Check this set of quartered Walnut for your top. http://www.rarefind.co.nz/Instruments/B ... -266-2.jpg
or this for a back freaking amazing!!! http://www.rarefind.co.nz/Instruments/B ... 1%20JB.jpg

Cheers,

Christian.

[Yeti]

Christian and Nick, thanks a bunch for the help and being welcoming. I need all the help I can get with that and have a thesis I need to finish first

I'm looking forward to coming back actually, and would be nice when I do to eventually talk shop while on the same time/maybe in person. But back on topic…

Christian I hear you, about natives, and some of those do look amazing. I like the look of some of their slabs as well, I might even be able to get one piece bodies out of that.

I really like the look of your guitars too, and some of the inlay work looks stunning.

I guess I'm so habituated to the kinds of commercially available tone woods in most production model guitars that stepping into uncharted waters looks a bit daunting. But after browsing your site I may indeed look into using them for some parts of the second build I had planned which would be a 7 string SG, possibly Mati for the neck and something as a top for it. Actually for that build I wanted to do a body inlay of a tree in a circle, maybe some figured native might be nice for that. I like that idea a lot actually, but will probably throw it out to the forum here before I do.

As for fret boards perhaps I can order some from all parts in UK before I go just to have some stock options. Because I'm building for myself (because its so dam hard to find guitars in my spec off the shelf) my main concern is that the wood is good quality, will last and sounds good. Preferably the aesthetic is also there, but as I say my drive to build came from pragmatism. It helps my old man is a carpenter and likes projects now he's retired too haha.

cheers
Ben

[peter.coombe]

I have never experienced the number of issues you continue to mention about importing or exporting, and I bet the volumes we do are more (over 150 to be exported this year).

Crikey, I can only manage to make an average of 10 a year. 15 is the max I have done so far. Bigger volumes and your costs do go down. Most of my mandolins used to go to the USA but a combination of factors, only one of which is the cost of importing parts and wood, have killed that off. The last straw was the US Lacey Act. In that case it is not the extra cost but the potential legal ramifications that scare off US customers. Correct, $1000 will get 6 sets of Rubner tuners, but just about everything else is way out. A set of Rubner tuners goes into a flattop mandolin which is $1500, not $3500, and for me the Rubner tuners is about the only thing ever likely to get close to $1000. If I asked more for the flattops then nobody would buy them. So, anything over the GST threshold is 10% + 5% + the "processing fee".

Peter

[kiwigeo]

Crikey, I can only manage to make an average of 10 a year. 15 is the max I have done so far. Bigger volumes and your costs do go down.

Perry isn't exactly a small time player. How many other people on this forum have employees?

[Ormsby Guitars]

Crikey, I can only manage to make an average of 10 a year. 15 is the max I have done so far. Bigger volumes and your costs do go down.

Perry isn't exactly a small time player. How many other people on this forum have employees?

Or a Korean factory!

Only 53 guitars this year will be made in our workshop. 250 are OS models. Hopefully next year that will be 40/750

[Ormsby Guitars]

I have never experienced the number of issues you continue to mention about importing or exporting, and I bet the volumes we do are more (over 150 to be exported this year).

Crikey, I can only manage to make an average of 10 a year. 15 is the max I have done so far. Bigger volumes and your costs do go down. Most of my mandolins used to go to the USA but a combination of factors, only one of which is the cost of importing parts and wood, have killed that off. The last straw was the US Lacey Act. In that case it is not the extra cost but the potential legal ramifications that scare off US customers. Correct, $1000 will get 6 sets of Rubner tuners, but just about everything else is way out. A set of Rubner tuners goes into a flattop mandolin which is $1500, not $3500, and for me the Rubner tuners is about the only thing ever likely to get close to $1000.

See there is the difference. Ive never, ever had a client, or potential client, even ask about Lacey acts. But, I COULD let them all know the very very slim pitfalls, and scare them away. I prefer the "ok, this is what we have to do, dont stress, we've already done it" model.

If I asked more for the flattops then nobody would buy them. So, anything over the GST threshold is 10% + 5% + the "processing fee".

Peter

Small tip: My sales increased when I put my prices up. Anyone with "money" will wonder if $3500 is too cheap, and therefore maybe not up to par? Remember, for them, its a big name brand high end model with all the fruit ($5000) or a handmade guitar from an artisan, who labours over every detail to give them something wonderful and personalised, for less.

[peter.coombe]

I prefer the "ok, this is what we have to do, dont stress, we've already done it" model.

Yep, do that, and also put them in contact with some one in the US who has imported one of my instruments, but so far most have then got onto the US F&W web site and got their pants scared off. I also know that when I increase prices, sales usually do go up. Right now I have a backlog of orders so this year has been good so far. The flattop mandolin is deliberately made as cheap as I can make them so as to get me into another segment of the market. Usually beginners or someone who is learning but has a really crap mandolin buy them, or sometimes it might be someone specifically looking for a flattop sound. It is working, and in quiet times has been a real life saver. They are also real fun things to make because there is less than half the amount of labour involved.

[demonx]

How many other people on this forum have employees?

I have had a few people working here, only one at a time though. The last guy working here did four days a week up until I started the CNC integration. I had a LOT of downtime over that initial period (really I'm still integrating and sorting out my new procedures and designs) and my workload has dropped off considerably due to the drop of momentum in my builds over that integration period, so I don't have the need for a helper at this point. Things are slowly picking up and it won't be long until I'm at a place where I need an extra set of hands around the workshop again but I'm taking my time to get things right as there's still a few processes I'm trying to get in order. Integrating CNC is like trying to learn building again as everything has to be approached differently.

I also have a third person lined up for finishing if things get too busy that I need assistance in that area, but at this point in time it's all in house and will be for quite some time.

Back to the topic though, I'm buying in not as much as Perry, but more than most others on the forum and import fees are simply something you have to deal with. Plan and allow for it in your end price and there is no problem. If you have a problem buying overseas, setup an account at AMS. You only have to spend $2000 a year there and be a registered business to setup an account. The wholesale prices though are higher than eBay! Mind you a lot of the crap on eBay is fake so you're better off paying more through a legit dealer.

[Nick]

Small tip: My sales increased when I put my prices up. Anyone with "money" will wonder if $3500 is too cheap, and therefore maybe not up to par? Remember, for them, its a big name brand high end model with all the fruit ($5000) or a handmade guitar from an artisan, who labours over every detail to give them something wonderful and personalised, for less.

You see this is a business model that has intrigued me, I know of several people that have employed this model with success and I can understand the pysche behind it, if it's price tag seems cheap then the guitar/instrument must be cheap, if it's high then people think they must be buying something special and that's what appeals. Unforunately, as Peter also knows, some markets don't support this thinking.