Build thread - Blackwood & Bunya Dreadnought

[Nick]

Whatever the genus or species they should make a nice looking guitar Alan. I particularly LOVE that top It would send a few "it's got to be master grade and nothing else" advocates into spasms but that's one of it's charms to me! How does it compare to Spruce, weight and tap tone wise?

[curly]

That ebay seller did indeed buy a couple of pallets of mixed ungraded stock from the liquidation of Big Sky Timber , a company I used to work for .
I need to clarify that it was not bought from myself personally . I grade my stock .
I'd proceed with caution there as a LOT of went out was not musical stock . In fact a lot of it was rubbish as the old boss wouldn't let us get rid of our fall down to the extent that we were drowning under it .
Your faces are Sequiadendron giganteum . Big tree or Sierra Redwood . The tree grew on a hill in Dean , just down the road from you Allan. The red streaking is the result of the tree having been ringbarked by horses ! The tree flooded the live heartwood edge with extractives in an attempt to protect itself as it died slowly .

Apologies that you have got caught in that . It's really the responsibility of the seller to be clear with what he has and the grades its being sold at . That and the fault of the $#@!wit that I used to work for in the whole enterprise turning to shit >

On the plus side if you like that stock Allan you could come and get more at no charge . I've forked a heap of it onto the Big Sky bonfire ! Just promise you wont list it on ebay as AAA soundboards ! Some of it would make good lightweight solid body blanks , with the prettier stuff being caps .

Pete

[demonx]

Thanks for the extra info Pete, both here and the PM's.

As we already discussed, I had to thin it down to just over 2mm to get all the marks out of the Redwood, it's now a bit flimsy and I was questioning if that is a bit thin for this timber, however I think it will still be ok. It's not uncommon for Classical guitars to go a down to 1.5mm and I don't think 2.2mm - 2.3mm is a drama although I'd prefer 2.5mm for a steel string.

At the end of the day this build is just another experiment/project for me to get my acoustic build methods worked out before I build them seriously so it won't hurt to proceed as it's just another trial and error process, testing out the new jigs, getting used to the new binding router setup etc.

[kiwigeo]

It's not uncommon for Classical guitars to go a down to 1.5mm and I don't think 2.2mm - 2.3mm is a drama although I'd prefer 2.5mm for a steel string.

To get down to 1.5mm and still sound good the wood needs to be as stiff as anything....

[demonx]

To get down to 1.5mm and still sound good the wood needs to be as stiff as anything....

I won't be venturing into that territory though, it's 2+ which from what a gather is acceptable.

[Jeremy D]

To get down to 1.5mm and still sound good the wood needs to be as stiff as anything....

I won't be venturing into that territory though, it's 2+ which from what a gather is acceptable.

I built a WRC guitar about the size of a dread and it came in over 3mm (using trev's calcs). 2mm seems thin to me.

[Nick]

You can compensate to some degree with your bracing, that's the beauty of Acoustics. I wouldn't want a Spruce top on a "standard" steel string to be below 2.4-2.5 to start with that's for sure! (Maccaferri's use 2mm as it's standard but then the top has Pliage as well as the doming) Don't know about the properties of the Timber you plan to use here though so wouldn't have a number to start from. If you're like me, tap and touch/flex (even wobble! ) would guide you, if you're in the Gore/analysis camp then empirical data would be your guide.

[J.F. Custom]

I won't be venturing into that territory though, it's 2+ which from what a gather is acceptable.

Acceptable for some individual tops in some species, alongside bracing designed for it - but not in this case. That is too thin for the top in question - I've had numerous of them in my hand and know what you are dealing with. Being that you've had to work it down that thin Allan, you will have to compensate in your bracing and essentially beef it up. All a learning curve and given you are relatively new to acoustic construction, it's good experience.

*EDIT* - Seems Nick beat me to it

For your interest, here is the tree itself (the dead one next to a live Western Red Cedar) -

redwood_tree_1.jpg (107.45 KiB) Viewed 20146 times

And the SERIOUS ring barking inflicted by horses! That bark was up to 300mm thick!! Hungry horses

redwood_tree_2.jpg (115.43 KiB) Viewed 20146 times

Finally, some perspective for size reference -

redwood_tree_3.jpg (117.69 KiB) Viewed 20146 times

Here is a bunch of them processed and ready to ship to CC and note (with reference to another thread on the topic of CC redwood) they are 1/4 sawn... Also the darker band of colour alongside the sapwood which Pete referenced -

redwood_2.jpg (109.22 KiB) Viewed 20146 times

And one of the figured stump cuts. Very pretty, but most of which had some wild and rolling grain, cut and supplied due to "customer specific request" -

redwood_1.jpg (83.81 KiB) Viewed 20146 times

Funny that Pete mentioned the back and side set being Plane tree - I thought exactly the same when I saw it but did not want to muddy the waters any further I figured likely it is, but it did not really matter because Plane or Silky, it is a bargain that you got.

Are the old set signed by Trevor and Gerard?

Ha! Yes, but I was only joking and have no intention of parting with mine...

Jeremy.

[demonx]

I'm supposed to be sanding guitars today, but since sanding is one of my favorites job (sarcasm) it's pretty easy for me to get distracted, so I decided to measure this Redwood top and clear my mind as the figures I posted were only a rough guess off the top of my head as I couldn't remember exactly what it ended out as.

Taking measurements all around I get a variety from 2.59mm through to 2.73mm.

The paper on my drum sander is long overdue for a change so a variation is not surprising, however a 0.14mm variation over a distance of 510mm isn't too bad.

So I feel confident now that this top is not too thin to work with, as for a bit I was wondering if I was going to look for something else to use. I'm glad as I'm liking the look of this Redwood. The fact it's local to me I think adds to my attraction to it.

[demonx]

I won't be venturing into that territory though, it's 2+ which from what a gather is acceptable.

Acceptable for some individual tops in some species, alongside bracing designed for it - but not in this case. That is too thin for the top in question - I've had numerous of them in my hand and know what you are dealing with. Being that you've had to work it down that thin Allan, you will have to compensate in your bracing and essentially beef it up. All a learning curve and given you are relatively new to acoustic construction, it's good experience.


Jeremy.

Thanks HEAPS for those pics! Greatly appreciated! I love seeing stuff like that.

[demonx]

Curly wasn't joking!

That'll keep me going for a bit.

[demonx]

Couldn't help myself. When I was at Curly's yesterday I saw this stack of English Walnut slabs (approx 2000x500x50) and we all know how things can play on your mind. I had to have some, so I dropped back in today and bought the lot.

If anyone is looking for back and side sets or other bits and pieces, when these guys get their storefront up and running I highly recommend. I've seen the prettiest Gidgee and the highest figured Blackwood I've ever seen over the last couple of days, so dust off your wallets and get yourself something special.

[demonx]

Sanded, scraped and grain fill started

[kiwigeo]

Z-poxy used for the grain fill?

[demonx]

Z-poxy used for the grain fill?

Yes. I used an applicator to scrape the flat areas, I did not do the top the neck was rubbed in by hand - nitrile gloves were worn.

[demonx]

Few more updates on the Redwood Top guitar

[kiwigeo]

All looking good...apart from that rosette.

Maybe it's just me being overly anal but the grain of the top doesn't quite match the grain of the same wood within the rosette. You obviously haven't simply cut channels into the top and inlaid the purfs and abalone/paua. It wouldn't bother a player or alot of builders but I'm the sort of builder who obsesses at night about such things

I realize those braces are going to get some chisel work but I'm a bit concerned about the thickness of same. Looking at the top wood you're using I think you should be aiming at going as light as possible on the bracing.

Just my thoughts and others may have different ideas.

[demonx]

All looking good...apart from that rosette.

Maybe it's just me being overly anal but the grain of the top doesn't quite match the grain of the same wood within the rosette. You obviously haven't simply cut channels into the top and inlaid the purfs and abalone/paua. It wouldn't bother a player or alot of builders but I'm the sort of builder who obsesses at night about such things

I realize those braces are going to get some chisel work but I'm a bit concerned about the thickness of same. Looking at the top wood you're using I think you should be aiming at going as light as possible on the bracing.

Just my thoughts and others may have different ideas.

When I was cutting the rosette channel, the CNC decided to loose it's Z zero (height reference) and cut the purf channel right through the entire top, so it became a repair rather than a rosette. I initially planned on the two black circles bordering the abalone being black white black purf to match the outside strip, but as the centre had popped out of the rosette, I had nothing to zero back onto to fix the problem. So I had to make do with what I had and the bugger turned during glue up and I didn't notice until it was too late.

As far as the bracing, I've made it oversized for a reason. It's WRC bracing and I've added a millimetre or two width to each piece. If you'd held the top in your hands you would understand why. Both Curly and Jeremy (who originally processed this tree) touched on the subject of this Redwood being a bit "flimsier" than normal and requiring extra bracing.

[kiwigeo]

Thanks for the run down on the rosette and braces Allan. Looking forward to seeing the finished instrument.

[demonx]

Spent a bit of time on this old beast today, it was time to get the thing out of the workshop.

After all the stuff ups I had through the build I was expecting it to sound like a tin can with rubber bands wrapped around it, I didn't bother to put in the pickup, saving that for the next build. I didn't bother to spend much time on the finish, I didn't bother with a truss rod cover and I didn't even cap the bolts on the bridge. It was a case of get the strings on and get it out of the workshop.

I didn't have any acoustic strings, so I made up a set from a bunch of electric singles I had in a draw, as again I was expecting the guitar to be crap so I didn't want to waste money buying good strings.

To my surprise it sounded pretty good! I recently played a Bunya/Blackwood Cole Clarke and even though it's not a side by side comparison, this probably sounds better. But that's just from memory.

I played this side by side with my WRC topped Churchill, the Churchill has a lot more depth and more projection. The Bunya top was more of a "tinny" sound than the WRC guitar. Id say the Churchill has a more complex range of sounds compared to my Bunya/Blackwood, which sounded simpler, but not of the same tonal quality.

After comparing my first acoustic build side by side (sound wise) to the Churchill, which built by a world renowned luthier with hundreds and hundreds of builds under his belt over a several decades long career, I feel pretty confident that my guitar wasn't entirely a failure, and even though it's not in the same league as the Churchill, it's not far enough away that I feel bad about it, overall the sound came out much better than I had anticipated.

Here's a quick mobile snap shot, I will take others one day in sunlight but it's too dark now.

[kiwigeo]

You're being a bit hard on yourself with the self assessment of your build...visually it looks great. Considering you don't have that many acoustic builds under your belt I reckon you've done pretty well.

[demonx]

I forgot to take it outside for pics today, but here are another couple of indoor mobile phone snaps.

[Mark McLean]

Allan, I reckon it looks great. It looks like a real player's axe - not too fancy but really well put together and nice timber. I hope you get to enjoy it.
Mark

[demonx]

Moving along with the Redwood guitar:

Back done: I wiped a coat of Danish oil around the surfaces, avoiding the next to be glued surface. It was a mix left over from an electric I was oiling and there was a bit left in the cup, so I thought I'd try something different.

[demonx]

Spent a bit of time making this to fit into the LMI bender.

I'm hoping I'll get an easy to bend and consistent cutaway with this jig. Will test it one day soon.