Bandsaw upgrade

[rocket]

Opinions invited// I'm looking at upgrading from my 14" 1hp Carbatec bandsaw to the Woodfast 16'' 2hp MBS 500,
One of the reasons that has swayed me toward the Woodfast is that i think the blade guide roller setup is superior to any of the Carbatec, Hafco, Jet comparable models, from as far as i can tell they all have the thrust bearing at 90 degrees to the back of the blade where as the Woodfast thrust bearing runs the circumference to the back edge of the blade.
Anyone have any suggestions?? gratefully accepted!!
Cheers..

Rod.

[curly]

I wouldn't be able to speak to the difference between those particular machines .
I'm no fan of carba tec machines though ive only encountered their cheapy models so it's likely just predjudice .
I do agree that the guides are really important . I have however gone the other way with the thrust bearing on my Hitachi cb100 . I changed ( jfcustom did it actually !)the bearing from running on the wheel or circumference to running on the plate or face . This was done because whilst using light guage narrow kerf resaw bands it was possible for the band to escape sideways past the thrust bearing face which caused some pretty scary carbide fireworks ! Just think of a couple of hundred little carbide fillets pinging of the carbide guides and ricocheting about . Running the bearing at 90' to the band gives more bearing surface .
Pete

[kiwigeo]

What are people thoughts on solid guides....opinions on this seem to vary widely.

[curly]

I run solid carbide plate guides which are low friction and wear . I think we did a year of heavy industrial use before any noticeable wear come up . It's simply carbide plates brazed onto a mild steel backing .
Pete

[ozwood]

I Rod,

Have you looked at the Laguna models I have the 14 SUV and am stoked with it !, I think a few others have it as well and are happy .

It has solid Ceramic guides that work a treat.

Cheers,

[jeffhigh]

Major problem I have with guide bearings is jamming up with dust despite being sealed
I would go with the solid ceramic if possible.

[auscab]

I run solid carbide plate guides which are low friction and wear . I think we did a year of heavy industrial use before any noticeable wear come up . It's simply carbide plates brazed onto a mild steel backing .
Pete

Great !! Ha , I finally found a use for the lady bending over to pick up the soap emoticon .

I was given a box of used carbide cutters from a shelix thicknesser head.
Ive been wondering what I could do with them.
The Wadkin that I have needs better guides than the timber blocks that were recommended when the saw was new.

Rob

[rocket]

I just checked out the Laguna range Paul, 2x14" models a 1 3/4 hp and a 3 hp, both look pretty nice, which model do you have in the shop?

Rod.

[Allen]

We just purchased 2 of the Hammer bandsaws from Felder for the Cairns Woodworkers Guild. I'm really impressed with them, and if I should ever decide to change from my 18" Jet, I'd go for one of them, or their big brother Felders in a heart beat.

[demonx]

I also have the Laguna 14 SUV with the resaw king blade. No regrets.

I was looking at the Carbatec bandsaw until I visited a local luthier with one, when I saw in person how it cut I swayed very quickly towards the Laguna.

[peter.coombe]

We just purchased 2 of the Hammer bandsaws from Felder for the Cairns Woodworkers Guild. I'm really impressed with them

I have had a small Inca bandsaw for 21 years and I purchased a Hammer bandsaw around 6 or 7 years ago, but have mixed feelings about it. The Hammer was chosen after speaking to Hammer owners and examining the Carbatec saws (was not impressed). All the Hammer owners I spoke to were pretty happy. I thought about a Woodfast, but was not prepared to buy one without seeing it and that proved to be impossible. The Hammer sat in the garage at Bega for a couple of years before we moved it into the workshop. While in the garage it ran nice and smooth, but I could never get it to cut straight. The blade was exactly the same as what I used in the Inca, just longer. No problems in the Inca. The Inca is a precision machine which cuts dead straight every time with a decent blade. Best thing I ever got for the workshop, great for mandolins, but too small for guitars. Changed blade manufacturer and the Hammer then cut straight. While on the subject of blades, when I first got it I ordered a new blade according to the specifications in the manual. The blade was made up and was way too long. Took it back and they chopped off around 3cm. Still too big. Took it back again and they chopped more off, still slightly too big but useable. Next blade order was another cm shorter, perfect. Write the correct length down Peter! After we moved it to the workshop it started to vibrate. I spent the best part of a whole day trying to fix that problem. Found a few small problems with the setup and the vibration was greatly reduced. I have cut many mandolin sets and most of my guitar sets with it. Just recently it has started vibrating again and I have no idea what is causing it. Is weird, I turn it on and it runs beautifully smooth, no vibration, next time I turn it on it vibrates. Turn the wheels by hand and everything is spot on. Frustrating.

Now the good parts. It has a 4hp motor so has power to burn. Eats Jarrah or Tassie Oak for breakfast. I cut up a Lancewood log with it and towards the end the blade was wrecked but it still chewed through the last bits with sheer brute force. Support from Felder is as good as it gets. I had a year 12 student make a resonator guitar under supervision in my workshop (turned out real nice) and he broke the fence doing something stupid. A phone call to Felder and a replacement part arrived in the post the next day. Try getting that sort of support from Carbatec for a 6 year old bandsaw!

[curly]

Thinking about the vibration coming and going on your bandsaw Peter , Did you check the wheels for uneven deposits of dust ? I've found that particularly with wet timber dust build up on the wheels can throw them off balance .
I'm sensitive to it because when I did a rebuild on my resaw , I got the wheels vulcanised ( rubbered ) and turned true though when I turned the machine on it vibrated so badly that it ( over a half ton ) moved around the workshop . It took off !
The friendly mobile machine balance guy fixed it for $600 which seemed a bit steep for half an hour , 20 washers as weights and half a dozen machine screws .
On Blades I use McDivens in Altona , vic . They are cheap and super reliable . Not once have I gotten a dodgy weld . I haven't had a good experience with Henry Bros in Sydney , dodgy welds and a #@*& to deal with . On the topic , does anyone have a good supplier for lennox ct resaw bands in Aus ?
Thanks
Pete

[MattW]

+1 for McDiven. I noticed their shop as i drove past one day so I pulled over and called the number on their shop. I spoke to Chris from memory and after around 10mins where I was asked extensively what bandsaw I had ( Homemade wooden frame,16" 2hp 3350mm length) and what i wanted to cut with it ( 250mm rip cuts in hardwood for back/side sets, etc plus general cross cuts), he said you need a 1/2inch 4TPI carbon blade, where are you? I said I was outside, he said come inside. So I went inside, he checked all the details again, wrote the price ($20) and stuff on a card and said give me 45mins. I came back in my lunch break, and picked it up.

Ive used it for around 18months so far, still sharp. If it were shop use, i guess its done about a weeks worth of cutting, its still sharp and rips thought 200mm pine sleepers still. I went back not long after thinking I'd better upgrade and got a 16mm 3TPI Bi metal blade, but i haven't used it yet as the first is still going strong.

Re the welds, the first blade i got was a 6TPI (not from McDivens), so didn't work for ripping very well. I went and got a 25mm 3TPI , the weld was somehow twisted or not smooth and sounded like the bandsaw was being hit with a sledgehammer every time it went through the blade guides.

Back on topic, I also get vibration from the sawdust building up, I need to install brushes on the wheels.

[peter.coombe]

Well I fixed the problem of the vibrating bandsaw. Thorough clean improved it, but not by much. Phoned Felder who suggested changing the belt. Apparently the belt can develop a kink if the saw is not used for a while, particularly if the weather has been hot. Bingo. It worked, massive difference. Did not think of that, my Inca is direct drive so never any belt problems. Also replaced a couple of bits that were worn, excellent service from Felder once again. Back in action now. Mental note to fire up the Hammer at least once a week to stop kinks.

[kiwigeo]

Well I fixed the problem of the vibrating bandsaw. Thorough clean improved it, but not by much. Phoned Felder who suggested changing the belt. Apparently the belt can develop a kink if the saw is not used for a while, particularly if the weather has been hot. Bingo. It worked, massive difference. Did not think of that, my Inca is direct drive so never any belt problems. Also replaced a couple of bits that were worn, excellent service from Felder once again. Back in action now. Mental note to fire up the Hammer at least once a week to stop kinks.

I loosen off tension a few turns if my bandie is going to be sitting unused for any length of time.

[rocket]

I just lashed out and placed an order for the Laguna LT 14suv bandsaw, looks like a nice bit of machinery, can't wait to have it now!!

Cheers

Rod.

[ozwood]

You won't be sorry Rod,

I have been giving mine a flogging re sawing all the spoils from my Tassie trip, I have a Re saw King blade , some wood slicers and some 1/4 6 tpi's and that covers pretty much every situation .

Changing blades is pretty easy.

Cheers,

Paul.

[J.F. Custom]

Hey Rod and others.

Bit slow on the old forum these days I'm afraid. Find myself very time poor... With respect to your original question, I realise it's a little too late now but figured for info sake I'd chime in all the same.

So firstly, I looked at one of the original, what is now the Laguna SUV 14's, about 10 years ago shipped direct from the manufacturer in Asia. Yes, despite it being branded Laguna, it is made in Asia, as are most in the price bracket. At the time, it was a new unit and left a lot to be desired in build quality, features and performance. This though is not unusual for new model machines. Often an importer such as Laguna, will test a sample, then work with the manufacturer to make improvements, select optional extras or have their own design features added. This takes time, further samples, re-engineering to some degree and comes at a cost of course. I'm happy to say that when I checked the latest incarnation at the most recent Working with Wood show in Melbourne, I was pleasantly surprised. They have put some effort in and the result, for the machine's intended market, is very reasonable. I'm sure you'll be happy with it - particularly as an upgrade from the standard 1hp C-Tec unit.

As to the guides, these are what Pete was referencing above. This is on a Hitachi CB100, the 100 standing for 100mm or ~4" of wheel depth and therefore blade depth potential. As you can see, the blade edge guides are solid pieces, about 2mm thick (x 8mm x 19mm) of tungsten carbide. Four have been brazed side by side on steel, then machined flat. These particular guides will work for up to 3" blades. They provide a great amount of blade support, accuracy, longevity and run reasonably cool. These were custom manufactured. The ceramic guides some manufacturers offer are simply cheaper versions of the same idea. The benefit of ceramic is it's cool running ability, but of course, the longevity is not as high. They are however available and reasonably priced. I prefer this style of guide for the extra support it provides over the bearing type systems that have smaller contact points, but each to their own and both can be coaxed to work.

hitachi_guides_1.jpg (92.03 KiB) Viewed 28667 times

The original thrust bearing however, looked like this. This is a common arrangement but limits the point of contact and support of the blade in thrust, to the radius of the bearing - what, 0.25mm of contact? As you can see, it also wants to cut it's own groove over time. The width of that bearing also dictates the amount of play the blade has before it will drop off the support and cause problems. This ideally should not occur anyway, but we discovered it can for various reasons.

hitachi_guides_3.jpg (101.26 KiB) Viewed 28667 times

The solution I came up with, was this. The bearing is a standard size, so easily replaceable and the holding hex bolt is drilled and tapped off centre, so it works like a cam - the shaft can be rotated to adjust where on the bearing you want the blade to sit. It provides a far greater point of contact and support and as the bearing is constantly running when under load, it does not wear a groove in one spot with the whole bearing wearing evenly. The washer also adds a guiding edge on one side, should it try to drift at all. In practice, all this has actually turned out rather well. We've had no issue since I installed it (the previous system ruined two very expensive tungsten carbide blades in alarming fashion!) and it's still going strong despite what could be considered fairly heavy, industrial use.

hitachi_guides_4.jpg (70.19 KiB) Viewed 28667 times

hitachi_guides_2.jpg (72.53 KiB) Viewed 28667 times

Just picking up on a couple of other comments...

Martin, I think Peter was referring to a 'kink' in the belt drive (from the motor to the lower wheel) as opposed to the blade. I assume you are referring to the blade that you loosen off by a few turns if unused? I have not seen a bandsaw with an easy feature to loosen off the pulley system "a few turns", but perhaps it exists! I have seen that some have a basic cam bolt that could be released and the motor moved to reduce the tension on the belt before re-tightening. An option for you Peter if your setup on the belt drive is not too fiddly. You just have to remember to re-tension before use! Many bandsaws do have a cam operated blade tension release which is useful.

As to service... Funny isn't it that it comes down to personal experience, though you do start to build a picture if it is consistent. I had exactly the opposite issue with Felder - I needed a complete change of replacement blades to suit their helical cutter head on the Hammer A341 (410mm wide) thicknesser/jointer combo, urgently and requested express post. Two and a half weeks and four phone calls later, I received them. Unfortunately in their 'wisdom', they sent a single set of 10 blades, as this is how the replacements come boxed. That helical cutter head has closer to 80 or so at a guess. Fat lot of good changing over 10 of them was going to do me! I was less than impressed... It practically halted prodution while the issue was addressed. As a side, a full blade replacement on that machine was close to $600! You don't want to have to do that too often

Sorry to get off track to the OP.

Cheers,

Jeremy.

[kiwigeo]

Great post thanks Jeremy..it's answered quite a few questions I had about bandsaw set up.

[peter.coombe]

Loosening the belt when not in use is not really an option on the Hammer. Belt adjustment is via a nut on a threaded rod, and you have to loosen two other bolts, so is slow and tedious to adjust.

[charangohabsburg]

[...] I think Peter was referring to a 'kink' in the belt drive (from the motor to the lower wheel) as opposed to the blade. I assume you are referring to the blade that you loosen off by a few turns if unused? I have not seen a bandsaw with an easy feature to loosen off the pulley system "a few turns", but perhaps it exists!

Yes, it does exist! My INCA has it.
I'm not sure though if this brand ever made it to Australia.

[peter.coombe]

Yes, it does exist! My INCA has it.
I'm not sure though if this brand ever made it to Australia.

Yes it did make it to Australia, I have one, the smaller model and it is a wonderful little bandsaw. I use it every day. Garrett Wade in Melbourne used to sell them, I bought it in 1994. Both are now defunct.

Peter

[charangohabsburg]

[...] I bought it in 1994.

Congrats! That's before they moved production to a cheaper place where quality went downhill before the finally dropped out of the market.

[soulman]

I'm with Allen on the Hammer and Felder bandsaw. I've just installed a Felder FB510 at school. It is a great looking machine and the service from Felder Brisbane is second to none. I had a look at the Laguna and wasn't impressed compared to the above.
Ross

[Richard]

The solution I came up with, was this. The bearing is a standard size, so easily replaceable and the holding hex bolt is drilled and tapped off centre, so it works like a cam - the shaft can be rotated to adjust where on the bearing you want the blade to sit.

The attachment hitachi_guides_4.jpg is no longer available

Mine (a Hare & Forbes model that I've had for about 10 years... and wanted to get rid of for most of that time) came with a similar style system out of the box on its lower guides. Except the bearing is firmly attached to the bolt, and I've never gotten around to ordering in the replacement part.

This is how the "enclosed" bearing now looks after a decade of use: