Fretless Bass Epoxy Treatment

[needsmorecowbel]

Had a bass player mate come into the workshop yesterday complaining of dead notes on his newish mexican J bass. He is after a heck of a lot more sustain than he is getting out of this cheap instcrument and insisted we try to experiment with Jaco Pastorius' method of using marine epoxy to create a skin over the fretboard (altering the tone and wearability of the fretboard). Any bass builders on the forum use this technique with much success?



I managed to talk him into doing some more research for the moment.... but we dramatically changed the bass's response by adjusting the neck, levelling the fretboard surface with fine grit paper and found a small pothole in the neck. Also changed the pickups out..

[P Bill]

A few suggestions on talkbass. Tuners, strings, timber, neck join etc. I've only made one guitar bass and it is fine.

From the other end of the pole, my eubs have too much sustain for an acoustic db player used to rapid decay.




http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f18/dead- ... n-1018053/

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f18/lack- ... es-690735/

[needsmorecowbel]

Cheers Bill Some cool ideas there!

Stu

[Nick]

Just thinking about it in my head (no scientific fact to back it up ), I'm wondering if sustain will drop off some simply because of the fact that it is a fretless Stu? When you think about it, on a fretted neck the finger frets a note behind the hard metal fret and the string has only a single point of contact at the crown, nothing (hopefully) to impede it's vibration there after. On a fretless your single point of contact is little wider and the area immediately ahead of the contact point must have some of that soft, dampening finger in contact as well.
Whether the sustain difference between fretted & un-fretted is noticeable to most punters, I doubt it.
Has your mate played other fretless basses before? What you've done to the bass (the fine tuning/tweaking) will certainly help but I'm just wondering if you are trying to attain a sustain the customer thinks (or wants)a fretless should have or whether it is genuinely something in the bass's manufacture/design?
Good luck either way.

[needsmorecowbel]

I highlighted to him from the start that I am just starting out the whole guitar making thing and anything we did would be an experiment. I could definitely hear the quick decay of the note. The notes were on the D, G string from 5-10 fret.

A guy on a bass forum roughly posted: don't see what all the fuss is there have been so many great recordings that have been done with instruments with these dead spot inconsistencies. You're right the average punter would not pick up on this

This guy is one hell of a bassist and he's currently looking for that "perfect" fretless bass so he knows what he wants and has played $13,000 instruments that don't have the same problem. The problem it seems is that he's trying to get that sound on a budget (not that there is anything wrong with that). Apparently the epoxy treatment does change the attack and tone of the bass giving it more growl or bite. Apparently...

It's a cool experiment none the less. If he goes through with the experiment I'll make sure to get some before and after recordings and keep it all scientific

Stu

[EricDownunder]

Some years ago I saw a chap playing a fretless bass using thimbles that were rounded over sounded real neat. Another guy a couple of weeks ago tweeked his piezo pickups and achieved a nice deep tone, he was getting some occasional string slap though.

[Phil Mailloux]

I built a couple of fretless basses, one of them had an oiled fretboard and the other a layer of CA, using CA will be pretty close in sound and feel as the epoxy finish, I personally wouldn't do epoxy as its a bitch to use and sand down flat, the CA will have a similar finish but be a lot easier to work with. If he's using flatwounds on his fretboard then he really doesn't need to finish it with epoxy or CA but if he plans on using roundwounds then yes he's better off finishing it. The unfinished fretboard will have a woody sound where the finished fretboard will have a much glassier sound, whether that fixes his dead spot, sustain and sound he wants to have in his head, I have no idea.

[needsmorecowbel]

Cheers Phil! C.A. sounds easier to do but the client sent me a message saying that he'd like to go through with the epoxy after doing some futher research. I will bring up the C.A. glue idea with him and see what he thinks. I think he has his mind set on "Pastoriussing" his bass... Has anyone had any luck with the Bote Cote epoxy system? A brief look on the search bar showed Col and others had used it with success.

Stu

[needsmorecowbel]

Bote-Cote? Col?

[kiwigeo]

From what I know Jaco ripped out the frets from his bass and then filled in the slots with epoxy. He probably couldn't get a good fill job on some of the slots so he ended up slapping the epoxy over the entire fretboard.

IMHO alot of Jaco's "sound" came from his technique (eg extensive use of harmonics etc)....I suspect if you had given him a stock standard factory fretless jazz bass he would have gotten the same sounds out of same as his "bass of doom".

Theres a video on Youtube of Pat Methany playing a number called "Jaco". On the clip the bass player (forgotten his name) is actually playing one of Jacos old fretless basses..theres a nice fretless sound going but its nothing like what Jaco would have got out of the same instrument.

[needsmorecowbel]

What type or brand of epoxy would you suggest Martin? Many forums suggest a marine epoxy similar to something like Bote-Cote. But as I am unfamiliar with epoxy products...

Stu

[kiwigeo]

What type or brand of epoxy would you suggest Martin? Many forums suggest a marine epoxy similar to something like Bote-Cote. But as I am unfamiliar with epoxy products...

Stu

I believe Jaco used a boat builder's epoxy product. Others are uggesting Bote-Cote so try that. Perhaps you could do a test run on a fretboard blank so you can practise application and see what you end up with.

[needsmorecowbel]

For sure don't particularly want to screw up a brand new bass on the first attempt.

[Phil Mailloux]

I'm not so sure that Jaco put a layer of epoxy on the fingerboard itself. In his Modern Electric Bass video he mentions never practicing on his fretless because the roundwounds eat his fingerboard up, that certainly leads me to believe he had only filled the slots.

[Craig]

I've found using slightly less hardener than recommended in the mix results in a much harder epoxy finish.
I haven't used all the epoxies available , so experiment with the one you use first . You'll find it interesting.

[colburge]

Bote-Cote? Col?

Hi Guys

I have used Bote-Cote for it's intended purpose on my wooden canoes and boats, and it is very easy stuff to use, forgiving on the ratios, has no blush, and is not expensive. This stuff dries rock hard and is very harsh on edge tools and sandpaper, so be careful to mask up well, and only use as much as you need to get the job done, otherwise you will be there forever finishing. I know Allen and Liam use it on their Ukes, so they might be able to give a better insight as to how it goes on a stringed instrument, but I cant see it being any different than on a boat.


Cheers

Col

[kiwigeo]

I'm not so sure that Jaco put a layer of epoxy on the fingerboard itself. In his Modern Electric Bass video he mentions never practicing on his fretless because the roundwounds eat his fingerboard up, that certainly leads me to believe he had only filled the slots.

I'm assuming it's the "bass of doom" that people talk about when the epoxy exercise is mentioned. Should be too hard to find a few photos/vids of Jaco with said bass and see whats going on on the fretboard.

The bass of doom I believe go "lost" for a while after Jacos death but has since resurfaced.

[kiwigeo]

I'm not so sure that Jaco put a layer of epoxy on the fingerboard itself. In his Modern Electric Bass video he mentions never practicing on his fretless because the roundwounds eat his fingerboard up, that certainly leads me to believe he had only filled the slots.

According to this account which is based on discussion with Jaco's bass technician from the 70s the fretboard was coated with epoxy not just the fret slots. The article contains details of the type of epoxy used as well.

http://www.ricksuchow.com/press-group-234.html

[needsmorecowbel]

Sorry for the confusion I understood it the same way that Martin has demonstrated. The brief by the client was that the frets were removed, filled with epoxy, then epoxy laid over the fretboard. The client came to me explaining this as a potential way to make a crappy bass sound good. He explained the story along the lines of Jaco would buy very cheap basses and experiment with them by using this epoxy technique. If it solved the "sustain" issues I'd be more than surprised.

The client had a 1967 Fender Jazz Bass but sold it as he felt it was limiting/ restricting his playing i.e. he was becoming too comfortable/ complacent with it.

I'm going to suggest to him that he just sits on it for a few months because if he has the work done and doesn't like it...I'll be the bad guy.

Stu