Are there any guitar builders close to Palmerston North, NZ?

[Richardl]

Hi Folks

I'm trying to make my first guitar, based on the Kinkead book (although I'm possibly going to go with a bolt-on neck as it seems a bit more forgiving). I'm not sure whether this will be a one-off or whether the bug will bite and I'll want to make more.

Anyway, there is such an array of techniques I haven't tried before, I wondered if there were any local luthiers that I could perhaps visit to get a better understanding.

I was hoping to avoid making a huge numeber of jigs and sanding disks that will potentially only be used once.

The soundboard is planed, rosette done, the sides are bent, I was going to make a flat soundboard but have learned that isn't the best option, so need to make some curved braces and cauls to help clamp. I could make a dished out MDF mould and go-bar but I'm not sure the best approach to hollow out the mould.

If there is anyone local I can chat to, that would be very much appreciated.

thanks
Richard

[Crafty Fox]

Hi Richard, I've recently completed my first acoustic build, and I used the Kinkead book, and I believe that other members of this forum have also been inspired by his book. I'm very happy with the result. I'm too far away to duck round with my OM, though I'm happy to email you any pics. I also went with a bolt-on neck, and I did build all the jigs etc suggested by the book. I was determined to do the best I could and as it's turned out so well I feel encouraged to do more, probably with a cut-away next time.
Trevor Gore (forum member) and Gerard Gilet have collaborated on a pair of books which have been recommended by other members. I hope to buy them before my next acoustic build.

[DarwinStrings]

G'day Richard, I can't help you with Palmerston North but HERE is a tutorial for a easy make radius dish.

Jim

[auscab]

Hi Richard ,
When I did my build, using the Kinkade book I shaped the dishes with the compass plane then fine tuned with a radiused stick with sand paper. There was a bit of a method getting the depths accurate with a feeler gauge and a router first,
If you didn't have the plane I think the Kinkade style dish could be done with an orbital sander and some fresh 60 and 80 grit.

If I'm right , Kinkades top jig converts approximately to a 50 foot radius if it were a dish and his back to a 35 foot radius, so if you got a dish which a lot of builders use which is a 25 foot for the top , I don't know how much of a difference that makes to Kinkades neck angle. You may have to draw it up , or the more experienced here will know.

[Richardl]

Hi all and thanks for the suggestions.

Crafty Fox, any pics would be welcome. How did you integrate the removable tenon with Kinkade's trussrod, or did you use the Cumpiano style truss rod (for which I have the bits). Did you drill a truss rod access hole in brace 'C'. Did you use the revised Cumpiano approach with hardware?

Rob and Jim thanks for the info on the dish and the method for preparing - I know someone with a compass plane I could borrow. I was thinking about the sanding disc. If the method in the link was taken a step firther, so you had 2 discs of equal thickness (say 8-10 mm MDF), with spacers around the circumferance, say 10 mm blocks glued to 1 surface and a bolt through the centre of the 2 discs, couldn't you alter the curvature of the discs by doing up or losening the bolt, using a curved stick to calibrate it? Not sure if that would work - you'd have to watch out for the bolt hitting the sides!

I have heaps of questions really, too many to post here without giving you good folk a headache, I suppose that is why I wondered if there was anyone local to talk to or see their approach. There is stuff in Kinkade's book I just don't get, like brace thickness where he says cut them 3 mm oversize. I cut the soundboard braces to the final thickness required as I was going to make a flat soundboard as mentioned - , they will still be the correct thickness in the centre but thinner as they progress out to the edge...but they get reduced by carving them anyway. Can't I use them now or is the thickness of the braces not absolutely critical?

Thanks

Richard

[nnickusa]

Welcome to the end of your disposable income,,,,Oh, and the ANZLF.....

I used Kinkade and made the dishes using my Random Orbital Sander, starting with 40 grit and moveing to 80,,, IIRC.....

I made a radius reference from perspex, using the flxible ruler method Kinkade shows, and mine are each on the second go round(OM and Dreadnaught)

Just watch the numbers in the book. A couple fret measures are wrong, and his technique for setting the neck has worked each time for me.....

I reckon it's a good starter book. Clearly presented and plenty of pix to show you what it should all look like. Just take your time and it'll work out well......

[Crafty Fox]

Hi Richard. Regarding the dishes I used an orbital sander on 17mm ply. Went a little deeper than I should've and filled it with a thin gyprock base coat mixed with a bit of Bondcrete then carefully sanded again to correct(ish) contour, and sealed with diluted Bondcrete. Just stuff I have lying around really. I prefer to use ply nowadays over MDF for health considerations. As a carpenter I get to work with MDF more than I like.
For the neck joint I used a hybrid revised Cupiano/Gore method of 2 KD bolts into a neck tenon and 2 more up into a neck extension. So no glue holding neck and body together. I did drill truss rod access through the brace and right through the neck extension and I can adjust with a longer Allen key. I fitted a 14 1/4" StewMac double action Hotrod. I've used them on my previous builds; 3 resonators and a handful of electrics.
Cheers

[Craig]

Nice work there Ken . I like that outside mold construction in particular . Those little middle blocks look a better solution than multiple layers of ply ( or particle board ,,,cringe )

Richard , Your braces will still be within your specifications after being radiused . Spruce will be removed from each end of the brace leaving the centre of the brace height untouched.

[Shane Woonton]

Hi Richard,

I'm in Wellington. Don't know how often you get down this way but I have a simple jig for making the radius dishes using a basic plunge router. It has rails for 15' and 28' radii. You're welcome to borrow it. Means you would only need a sheet of mdf or ply and a bit of time to make some mess (it makes a lot of dust!). Also happy to catch up if you want to talk about the guitar-making process.

Cheers,

Shane

[kiwigeo]

Hi Richard,

I'm in Wellington. Don't know how often you get down this way but I have a simple jig for making the radius dishes using a basic plunge router. It has rails for 15' and 28' radii. You're welcome to borrow it. Means you would only need a sheet of mdf or ply and a bit of time to make some mess (it makes a lot of dust!). Also happy to catch up if you want to talk about the guitar-making process.

Cheers,

Shane

Richard, I'd jump at Shane's offer. Take along a bit of MDF with you and you'll come away with one of the most useful guitar making tools one can have in their workshop.

[Richardl]

Hi All and again, thanks for all the advice.

Nice work Ken - thanks for posting. I see you got a Stu Mac truss rod, I have the rod to make mine but need to bend it and thread it.

Thanks for the offer Shane. I'm sure I could pop down for a day. I'll talk it over with my wife for some possible dates - I'll PM you.

Cheers
Richard

[simso]

Very decent, and you would be mad not to take shanes offer up, even if its just to get some local know how.

If that does not work, find someone that has a cnc machine and get one machined up out of mdf.

Its a pretty easy job, we make our own in house, but we are in perth, so of no use, as shipping in australia is a killer

[Richardl]

Hi Richard ,
When I did my build, using the Kinkade book I shaped the dishes with the compass plane then fine tuned with a radiused stick with sand paper. There was a bit of a method getting the depths accurate with a feeler gauge and a router first,
If you didn't have the plane I think the Kinkade style dish could be done with an orbital sander and some fresh 60 and 80 grit.

If I'm right , Kinkades top jig converts approximately to a 50 foot radius if it were a dish and his back to a 35 foot radius, so if you got a dish which a lot of builders use which is a 25 foot for the top , I don't know how much of a difference that makes to Kinkades neck angle. You may have to draw it up , or the more experienced here will know.

Hi

The 50 foot radius sounds right as a 25 foot radius gives a depth of 6 mm according to my sums on a 610 mm (2 foot) diameter dish. A 6 mm deep soundboard and a 10 mm deep back (a 15 foot radius) sounds like a lot to me. So how critical is the dish depth? Would a dish with a 25 food diameter be unsuitable for the Kinkade (and I think the Cumpiano) design then, or does it only make a fraction of s degree difference where the soundboad meets the sides?

Cheers
Richard

[auscab]

So how critical is the dish depth? Would a dish with a 25 food diameter be unsuitable for the Kinkade (and I think the Cumpiano) design then, or does it only make a fraction of s degree difference where the soundboad meets the sides?

Cheers
Richard

Hi Richard, not so important where the soundboard meets the sides with Kinkades method but it is with kinkades neck angle I think .
A 25 foot radius over a 500mm chord means the bridge position of the top is at 4.1mm approximately
Kinkades is 2mm . A 52' Radius gives 1.97mm at the half way position and the bridge is a little further south.

Check page 104 of his book and how the neck angle relates to bridge position.

With the 25'R , I'm pretty sure you would have to change the neck angle slightly and then there is the fretboard extension joining up with the top properly. I haven't done this but from what I have read people change the sanding of the upper bout and the upper transverse brace to work with the 25' radius dish.

If you have the experienced help you should be right though . I'd be sticking to the book without it.

If you want to get into it more I have bookmarked some good threads here and on the OLF describing this 25' fiasco for when I need to figure it out. From what I know the domed top is all about contraction and expansion , if a 50 or 52'R works why do people want to do the 25'R ?? I don't know that one

I use this place for getting the segment heights as well

http://www.1728.org/circsect.htm

[Trevor Gore]

Whilst many people seem to have made respectable guitars following either the Cumpiano or the Kinkead method, many haven't and there's reasons for that which you can read about here and here, which are just a couple of references for these issues that continue to arise. Basically, if you follow the instructions closely as written in those books, the neck angle will likely come out wrong.

To get it right, without having to wedge the fretboard extension, the top of the neck blank has to be coplanar with the upper bout AND the extension of this plane over the saddle position should clear the top of the guitar by 2 to 2.5 mm. This means that the neck angle is essentially set by the longitudinal curvature of the upper bout and that the angle that the heel makes with the top of the guitar is largely irrelevant, provided the gap between the heel and the sides is closed. If you use a radius dish for the top in the range 25' to 33' (8 to 10m) you can get the right geometry by flattening the UTB slightly from the initial dish radius (varies by dish radius, scale length and frets clear of the body, so draw it out), but ~1mm flattening is in the ball park, then glue the UTB in separately (i.e. not in the dish). You then need to maintain this geometry as you close the box. Any minor residual error that you have once the box is closed you can take out by skimming the top wood in the upper bout until the projection over the saddle position is correct and the neck shaft is coplanar with the upper bout and the heel is fitted to the sides.

Then get yourself a decent book!

BTW, more here and here.

[Kim]

people change the sanding of the upper bout and the upper transverse brace to work with the 25' radius dish.

You can sort this after you've driven the bus with the body in the radius dish for a while and completed the profiling of the linings by cutting a bit of melamine slightly longer, and a decent bit wider, than the guitar's body. Use this to make a sanding board gluing 80 to 100 grit abrasive right across one end. Pencil shade the neck block (hogging off what clearly needs to go with a saw/block plane first) and also the surface of the upper bout linings. Place the upper bout/transverse onto the abrasive end of the melamine sanding board and then slide a 1/8" packer under the top surface of the tail block. Making sure that the tail block remains pivoting on the 1/8th packer throughout the entire operation, move the upper bout like its a pendulum back and forth across the abrasive and continue until it has flattened out the gluing surfaces.

Cheers

Kim

[Richardl]

Whilst many people seem to have made respectable guitars following either the Cumpiano or the Kinkead method, many haven't and there's reasons for that which you can read about here and here, which are just a couple of references for these issues that continue to arise. Basically, if you follow the instructions closely as written in those books, the neck angle will likely come out wrong.

To get it right, without having to wedge the fretboard extension, the top of the neck blank has to be coplanar with the upper bout AND the extension of this plane over the saddle position should clear the top of the guitar by 2 to 2.5 mm. This means that the neck angle is essentially set by the longitudinal curvature of the upper bout and that the angle that the heel makes with the top of the guitar is largely irrelevant, provided the gap between the heel and the sides is closed. If you use a radius dish for the top in the range 25' to 33' (8 to 10m) you can get the right geometry by flattening the UTB slightly from the initial dish radius (varies by dish radius, scale length and frets clear of the body, so draw it out), but ~1mm flattening is in the ball park, then glue the UTB in separately (i.e. not in the dish). You then need to maintain this geometry as you close the box. Any minor residual error that you have once the box is closed you can take out by skimming the top wood in the upper bout until the projection over the saddle position is correct and the neck shaft is coplanar with the upper bout and the heel is fitted to the sides.

Then get yourself a decent book!

BTW, more here and here.

I think I more-or-less follow this. Looks like I have hit on a common problem. Anyway, I'm taking Shane up on his kind offer so it may well all fall into place when I get to look at things in reality and talk things over in some detail. At this stage, I'm at a point where anything is possible apart from changing the overall gross dimensions. Its all learning a new language and its made more diffiult as I'm just a simple Brass player and know nothing about playing the guitar.

Regarding the decent book - what had you in mind?


Cheers

Richard

[Trevor Gore]

Regarding the decent book - what had you in mind?

Hmmm. I'll get back to you once I've spoken to my spin doctors.

[Richardl]

Regarding the decent book - what had you in mind?

Hmmm. I'll get back to you once I've spoken to my spin doctors.

Right...gotcha, I looked at your website .

[kiwigeo]

Regarding the decent book - what had you in mind?


Cheers

Richard

The answer is black and white.....like the books

[colburge]

The books are great, I recommend them for a beginner because I am one!


Cheers

Col