Question about planes .... again

[Frenchy]

Hi all

I've been reading this forum for quite a bit of time but only decided to register today. My name is Seb, I'm french but I live in Western Australia, in Perth, as an archaeologist for mining companies. And I've planned to built guitars during my time off, as a hobby but maybe also as a B plan for the futur... time will tell.
I've been interested in guitar making for years, I succed to buit a selmer copy 5 or 6 years ago which wasn't too bad for a first one, and I'm now starting a weissenborn copy, in blackwood, .

Anyway, my question was about planes. As I'm currently getting some tools, I'd like to buy some nice planes from LN, but I'd need a few advices first. I guess a jack plane is not an option, but what type : low angle or standard ? is 5 1/2 is a better idea ?

What about block planes ? I'm a little bit lost in the LN catalogue, too many stuffs...

In fact, what would you buy guys if you were starting from the beginning and you could chose 2 or 3 planes ?

Thanks for your advices
Cheers
Seb

[Crafty Fox]

Bonjour Seb, welcome to the forum.
I don't have Lie Nielsen planes or catalogue so can't comment on them. I do have a number of planes, collected over many years including #4 Stanley smoothing, #5 1/2 Stanley Jack, #7 Record Jointing and various little planes of all shapes and sizes. One of my standout favourites is Veritas low angle Block plane which I purchased last year.
And, of course, you may also benefit from getting a spokeshave. Again, I favour my recently acquired Veritas low angle.
I live in Perth's northern suburbs, near Wanneroo, so if you like you can come and have a look at my tools and I'll show you what I use the most. Just PM me for contact details.

[kiwigeo]

I've got planes coming out my ears but only two of them get regular use:

1. a Veritas low angle blockie
2. a Veritas No 4 smoother

Also useful but I'd get away without it is my Veritas jointing plane.

If you like the finest things in life then go with LN.....if you like value for money then IMHO Veritas beats LN hands down.

[Frenchy]

Thanks Ken. I'll probably be quite busy the next 2 weeks but I'm definitely interested in your offer
I've seen Veritas, seems to be a good value too. But is it possible to use a veritas jack plane with a shooting board ?
I mean, can you use it on the side and does it has square angles ?

[Frenchy]

Allright, stupid question : I've just checked their website and and it looks like you get what you paid for... Thanks for this advice Martin.

[kiwigeo]

Thanks Ken. I'll probably be quite busy the next 2 weeks but I'm definitely interested in your offer
I've seen Veritas, seems to be a good value too. But is it possible to use a veritas jack plane with a shooting board ?
I mean, can you use it on the side and does it has square angles ?

I use my Veritas smoother on my shooting board when I cant be bothered lugging the jointer off the shelf.

Another option is an older Stanley.....but usually a bit of tuning is required.

[charangohabsburg]

No LN planes here either. These are certainly very good planes, especially if you plan to sell them again after some use. But other brands also provide excellent planes, for slightly to significantly lower prices.

I prefer bevel-up planes over others not only because they feel better in my hands (no "blade/cap-salad" in the area ahead of the rear grip) but also because for the cost of an additional blade I can use the same plane with different cutting angles (high angles for difficult wood with interlaced grain, flamed or other figured wood - low angles for quick effortless planing or for planing end grain). Also, getting the blade out and in again for sharpening it is much quicker than with a plane that uses a chip breaker.

My most used planes are several Veritas planes, all bevel-ups: the normal block plane and the low angle smooth plane, followed by the low angle jack plane.
I use all these three on the shooting board, but mostly it is the smooth plane. You can not use though the Veritas jointer plane on a shooting board (unless you would mount it on a self made base which provides a 90° angle to the sole - only an option if one has this jointer anyway, but has not (not yet) the low angle smooth- or jack plane).

[EricDownunder]

Welcome to the forum, out of all my planes the Veritas low angle block plane and a Veritas shoulder plane would be the ones that get used every day

[Trevor Gore]

You'll need a "big" plane and a "small" one and can then do most guitar building jobs. However, there is always room for more planes!

The two to start with are the Veritas low angle jack with the adjustable mouth, with two blades; one for low angle work, one for high angle work. This plane can do all the "large" plane jobs on a guitar from thicknessing tops, backs and sides to shooting joints. The other is a low angle block plane (to which you might want to add a high angle block as your next plane). Any of the LN or Veritas block or apron planes work fine. They all vary slightly in weight and size, so just get one that feels good and fits your budget. The adjustable mouth ones are the most versatile.

Personally, I find the number 4 or 4 1/2 size, which is always recommend, to be the exact wrong size for anything on a guitar, so I pretty well never use mine for guitar work. If you choose to go bevel down rather than bevel up a 5 or 5 1/2 will serve you much better for guitar work.

[charangohabsburg]

Personally, I find the number 4 or 4 1/2 size, which is always recommend, to be the exact wrong size for anything on a guitar, so I pretty well never use mine for guitar work.

I (also personally ) like it partly because, due to its narrower blade (compared to the jack plane) it takes less effort to push it, especially on hard woods when taking a considerably thicker shaving than those "see-through" shavings. Let's call it "the weakling's jack plane"!
Also, for starting to flatten a very uneven top or back set sized piece of timber I prefer a smaller plane which takes me quicker towards the goal than a jack. So, oddly I don't use the so called "smooth plane" very often according its name.

[Chalks]

Hi Guys,

does anyone use the Veritas Palm Planes and how do they compare to the Ibex Finger planes. Also are there other alternatives to those two brands to be considered?

Sorry Frenchy I don't mean to divert the thread at all, but it was kind of timely that you asked a "plane" type question.

Thanks fellas.

Chalks

[P Bill]

After 30+ using a Stanley low angle I broke down and bought a DX60. Wow! Even a chimp will get results with one of these.

I also got a LV squirrel tail convex palm plane. http://www.carbatec.com.au/lee-valley-c ... ane_c22316
Very happy with it, I used it for the hard to get at areas on the inside of my small archie. I still had plenty of curve left.

[Trevor Gore]

I (also personally ) like it partly because, due to its narrower blade (compared to the jack plane) it takes less effort to push it...

The 4 (smoothing) and 5 (jack) share the same blade, as do the 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 (which have the same blade but wider). These are the Stanley/Bailey sizes, of course, which may be different from other makers. The Veritas low angle jack has a blade width somewhere between the 4 size and 4 1/2 size. The 4 1/2, 5 1/2, 6 and 7 all take the same blade, which can be handy if you want/need to swap them around.

[charangohabsburg]

Thanks for the bladeological clarifications Trevor. I didn't look at the Stanleys and their copies again since I had discovered the low angle planes, hence my ignorance regarding blade width of non-Veritas planes .
Veritas low angle smooth plane and Stanley N°4: 2" blade
Veritas low angle jack: 2 1/2" blade
Makes a difference for me when pushing the plane.

I forgot to mention one reason more why I like the low angles much more than the Stanleys etc. - I never experienced that the shavings got trapped in a low angle plane (which happens too often with my N°4 Bailey).

[Trevor Gore]

Veritas low angle jack: 2 1/2" blade

Hmmm, even more confusion!

My Veritas LA jack is 56mm blade (2 3/16") !

The Stanleys are 2" and 2 3/8".

I forgot to mention one reason more why I like the low angles much more than the Stanleys etc. - I never experienced that the shavings got trapped in a low angle plane (which happens too often with my N°4 Bailey).

Fair comment.

If anyone is having that problem, try setting the cap iron a little further back from the cutting edge. 1.5 to 2 mm is about right, regardless of what you might read elsewhere! Also, make sure the contact point of it on the blade is right at the front edge of the cap iron (bevel the cap iron's "inside" back edge if necessary; this stops the chip jamming in a tiny V notch) and make sure that the angle between the cap iron leading edge and the blade is less than 45 degrees, which helps the chip slide over. You may have to flatten the curl in the end of the cap iron to get that set. Just squeeze it in a vise. That normally fixes things. If you use a really narrow mouth (some of my planes are set up like that) a back bevel relief on the inside edge of the mouth can help. 5 to 10 degrees is usually enough. It's not necessary to take it to a knife edge, so little danger of filing the mouth out of true. But if you use a really narrow mouth and a close set chip breaker, all that happens is that there is no escape for the shaving.

[Nick Payne]

There's a wonderful video shot at a Japanese university showing the effect of the cap iron and its angle and placement on the performance of a plane blade. Well worth watching. I'm pretty sure a link to this video has been posted somewhere on the forum previously, but here it is again:

http://vimeo.com/41372857

[Crafty Fox]

Hi Guys,

does anyone use the Veritas Palm Planes and how do they compare to the Ibex Finger planes. Also are there other alternatives to those two brands to be considered?

Sorry Frenchy I don't mean to divert the thread at all, but it was kind of timely that you asked a "plane" type question.

Thanks fellas.

Chalks

I recently purchased the set of 4 palm planes and used them to shape some braces. I'm quite happy with the ones I used, they are comfortable to work with, less cramp in my hand. I've only got one Ibex which wasn't needed for that job. That's been used for carved tops, along with the small Lee Valley 'squirrel tail' convex plane.

[Crafty Fox]

Just been on the Lee Valley site and noticed they are supplying thicker Veritas cap-irons and also blades (O1 and A2) to suit Stanley and Record planes.

[charangohabsburg]

Veritas low angle jack: 2 1/2" blade

Hmmm, even more confusion!

My Veritas LA jack is 56mm blade (2 3/16") !

My mistake Trevor, I should have written 2 1/4".
Not that I would think this would be of great importance... but instead of using a ruler I now reached for the caliper to measure my blades.
Surprise: My Veritas LA jack's blade is 56.34mm (2 7/32"), exactly between 2 3/16" and 2 1/4".

I forgot to mention one reason more why I like the low angles much more than the Stanleys etc. - I never experienced that the shavings got trapped in a low angle plane (which happens too often with my N°4 Bailey).

Fair comment.

[...] If you use a really narrow mouth (some of my planes are set up like that) a back bevel relief on the inside edge of the mouth can help. [...]

That is exactly what I almost did, but then happened to buy my first Veritas LA and did not bother to go further with tuning my Stanley after having spent hours and hours with doing so (flattening the sole, removing burrs and paint on the wrong places, fitting the chipbreaker, etc.). I think the newest generation of Stanley planes are better made (at least they get nice reviews) than the ones (also mine) produced during at least one decade before.

There's a wonderful video shot at a Japanese university showing the effect of the cap iron and its angle and placement on the performance of a plane blade. Well worth watching. I'm pretty sure a link to this video has been posted somewhere on the forum previously, but here it is again:

http://vimeo.com/41372857

I also was impressed by this video and then thought I could try to set the chipbreaker of my N°4 Bailey closer to the blade edge. Much to my surprise it was not possible to set it closer than about 1mm! Of course, I could modify the frog or try to get a chipbreaker that is long enough ahead its screw thread but I preferred to just shake my head and put the plane together in the usual way with its chipbreaker not being a chipbreaker but just a cap iron.

[Chalks]

Hi Guys,

does anyone use the Veritas Palm Planes and how do they compare to the Ibex Finger planes. Also are there other alternatives to those two brands to be considered?

Sorry Frenchy I don't mean to divert the thread at all, but it was kind of timely that you asked a "plane" type question.

Thanks fellas.

Chalks

I recently purchased the set of 4 palm planes and used them to shape some braces. I'm quite happy with the ones I used, they are comfortable to work with, less cramp in my hand. I've only got one Ibex which wasn't needed for that job. That's been used for carved tops, along with the small Lee Valley 'squirrel tail' convex plane.

Thanks Ken. They look like they would be very comfortable in the hand.

Chalks

[Gerry Coon]

I'd say make a few of your own. Plenty of kits and blade sets out there. Ron Hock has one, Terry Gordon has them. Lie-Nielsen has floats and blades. The proper thing to do with precious off cuts.

Cheers.

[Frenchy]

Thanks all for all those advises. It helped me a lot. I purchased yesterday a veritas low angle block plane, to start with : never had such a efficient handtool in my hand !
Guess the next one will be the low angle jack plane, or maybe a 5 and 1/2. But I have to make money first !

Cheers

Seb

[Shane Woonton]

Hi guys,

Resurrecting an old thread to ask a related question - I'm planning on purchasing the Veritas low angle jack plane. Thoughts on A2 vs O1 blades? I'm sharpening by hand with water stones and the reality is my tools don't get a huge amount of work, about 3 - 4 guitars per year.

Also, the plane comes with a 25 degree blade. Should I add a 50 or 38 degree as a useful alternative?

All advice appreciated!

Thanks,

Shane

[charangohabsburg]

Hi Shane, if I was in for a new order Veritas plane blades the question would rather be A2 vs. PM-V11 than A2 vs. O1. Well actually it would not be a question at all for me, I would go for the new material (PM-V11) which is told to yield a keener, longer lasting edge than it is the case with A2. All my Veritas planes are equipped with A2 blades though (I bought them before they even talked about PM-V11), and I sharpen them by hand on water stones, which is a quick operation.

A second blade with a steeper bevel angle is definitely a good idea. In my opinion it make sense to go for the 38° blade and then, but only if needed, increase the secondary bevel until is is suited for the mos problematic wood you use. Keep in mind that is takes considerably more force to push a steeply bevelled blade, hence the flattest possible bevel for a certain wood / grain may be your preferred one. Of course it is also possible to go from a steep bevel to a flatter one, but this takes "a bit" more (= way too much) time and sweat.

[Trevor Gore]

I use A2 and have 25 and 38 degree irons. The 38 degree easily sharpens up to give a 62 degree blade angle on the low angle jack, which is as much as you need before moving to a scraper/scraper plane. It is worth knowing what angle you're honing at on bevel-up planes, so a good honing guide is very useful. I haven't tried PM-V11.