Neck Joint Rant

[jeffhigh]

Know what makes a Martin Great, Mystical and Magical
It's the dovetail joint.....

http://youtu.be/4Mbfd7OMq-M

What a load of crap

[Trevor Gore]

Aw, Jeff...call that a rant?

Come on, tell us what you really think!

[Dominic]

Perhaps we could look at this kind of stuff as Martin running a little scared of all the hand builders successfully using bolt on necks and making fun of their cheap glued on neck joins.
I'll look at it like that anyway.
Cheers
Dom

[charangohabsburg]

Know what makes a Martin Great, Mystical and Magical
It's the dovetail joint.....

http://youtu.be/4Mbfd7OMq-M

Just a lame copy of the Santa Cruz dovetail advertising.

[nnickusa]

Well, both of mine are dovetails so, I shouldn't "dispel the mystique" but you'll notice there is a mention od Martin's "proprietary mortise and tenon" joint towards the end, and that looks an awful lot like a bolt on to me...

Interesting thing is, that when the video ended, one of youtubes suggestions was to watch a video of a guy saying how bad the bolt on taylors, seagulls and martins are, and even that Martin tries to cover up the fact that they bolt on necks by inserting timber plugs over the bolt heads.....the other two simply cover their bolts with labels.....

Bit sad, really.....A rose by any other name would still smell the same.....or something like that....

[J.F. Custom]

What a load of crap

Yes, but c'mon Jeff - Credit where credit is due... It brought a smile to my face so it was highly entertaining crap.

**sigh**

Well, that's three minutes of my life I'll never get back.


Seems they follow the thinking (or is that marketing line?) of these guys -

http://www.santacruzguitar.com/whats-our-secret/

Read down the page a little to the "Dovetail Joint" section and you'll find this -

"The dovetail jointed neck allows us a considerable degree of control over the presence of the guitar. The tonal advantage of the dovetail is not a matter of opinion; it is supported by acoustic physics. The dovetail joint is a crucial element in voicing and tuning our guitars to be extremely responsive and powerful to the audience."

This comment has been raised on this forum once before. I did in fact contact Santa Cruz Guitars requesting the data, or a link to same, that suggested the dovetail was sonically superior - not by matter of "opinion", but by "acoustic physics". This was done by me assuming such data did not in fact exist, but open to the possibility it might and I may be entirely wrong. And if so, I was happy to investigate and study the research that suggested otherwise.

To their credit, they did reply. In fact, Richard Hoover himself replied. Without detailing his reply verbatim, I'll summarise to this. He was not overly happy about the possibility I was "challenging his thesis" or requesting scientific proof of same. I guess really, I was a nobody requesting info to support their statement, so his reaction is probably justified. He was happy to discuss the comments nevertheless. He said perhaps the wording was not great on the website and that this would be more appropriate -

"We use neck density as a means to manipulate projection (direct the presence) of different models.The energy generated by the strings moves thru the neck body/connection differently depending on what is or isn't there. If the connection allows efficient transfer you have the choice to facilitate it or block it. If the neck joint predisposses the instrument to only one of these options, it won't yield as much control over where the guitar sounds its best or biggest (presence)."

"Thanks for the opportunity to rethink my statement. It is an oversight that I didn't qualify that I was refering to mass production shortcuts. I can see where I sounded contentious without supporting information."


Which I think is quite a gracious end to his reply. Nevertheless, I note that the comment on the site remains unchanged despite the intervening years...

I guess that is because it is 'marketing' and marketing needs to be kept simple to cut through - even if the edited sound byte result is shite/hyperbole. Just ask the politicians - they are the experts. Mind you, at least SC Guitars did not go into how "mystical" this was... blimey.

Jeremy.

*edit* just noted that Markus has posted the link too... That's my wordy posts for you.

[kiwigeo]

We all know what seagulls do best.....

[charangohabsburg]

That's my wordy posts for you.

Appreciated!

I guess Santa Cruz would have changed the wording if they had to pay big bucks to J.F. Custom Marketing Consultants for what you told them.

BTW, I think that advertising any construction method as being "mystical", without connecting it to some non provable qualities (be these related to sound , structural properties or whatever) would be perfectly legitimate.

[charangohabsburg]

We all know what seagulls do best.....

[simso]

Thats funny, Ive lost count of how many Martin dovetail joints that Ive had to re-attach becuase they have failed. And ummm yes martin does have some bolt on necks.......shhhhhh its a secret

That being said, they are no more uncommon than most other guitars I see.

[Dominic]

Supported by acoustic physics they say but just trust us as we are too busy to explain???

I think in Australia if you made such claims it could be challenged under truth in advertising rules. Imagine that debate???

If someone says it is supported by physics, and backed by data, it is quite meaningless and even deceptive to refuse to explain the physics or make the data available. If any of us in our professional capacities were to publish a journal article in our fields we would be obliged to make data available so our results can be replicated and verified. It seems like a reasonable thing to expect.
But the truth will out eventually!

I wonder if the GAL would publish an article that looked at the junk pseudo science being used by some of the majors and how this is not helping the guitar buying public. So we can get some of these discussions out to a wider audience. Shine the brightest light at the weakest point in their “theory”. Might be a fun project to work on in spare moments.

Cheers
Dom

[christian]

Is it mystical and magical because they have yet to figure out how to get it right !!!
top draw BS marketing.
but to the lay person this advertising probably actually works.

Christian.

[rocket]

Thats funny, Ive lost count of how many Martin dovetail joints that Ive had to re-attach becuase they have failed. And ummm yes martin does have some bolt on necks.......shhhhhh its a secret

That being said, they are no more uncommon than most other guitars I see.

Steve, What would you say was the main contributing factor in so many dovetail neck/body failures in the Martin guitars? is it a true dovetail or simply a tapered mortice and tennon?
Rod.