French Polishing--when is enough bodying?

[nnickusa]

Alastair, by the way I agree with you on the methods used on the Millburn Site. I was really happy with the way the bodying was going. then I rubbed it back and followed the advice for glazing and ended up with a rather messy looking end product. I've added a few more bodying sessions--all told about 9 sessions of 30-45 minutes. I'm guessing that should be enough...I'll polish with Meguires in a week or so, and see what happens.

From what I understand, you can always go back with this technique and hit it again...

[auscab]

Peter said , “ It is probably the most comprehensive on the net “
And I would suppose it is the most comprehensive that has been pointed out to me, It covers a lot, and any one who puts in that much work, should be thanked. But there are parts I would not be doing ,or doing differently. Some of those things could be there because it’s been kept basic. Others I just don’t agree with.

If it’s getting you a good start at it, well that’s a good thing. And perhaps if I haven’t a good thing to say then I should not say a thing.

But

When it gets to the bit on Glazing, it seems a bit short to me at that part. Going from a cut back surface ,dull ,to finishing it off with a series of straight lines , will leave it average looking.
Woven cloth and straight lines should leave fine lines like the grooves in a record at best.

The shellac should be very thin , the rubber with most of the shellac squeezed out, start straight for maybe three end to end coats and as the shellac starts to run thin give it a flick of oil and spread it then move in to circles for four total passes then eights for four passes back to circles then long ovals with the grain add a little metho to the rubber and straighten off till the oil is off.
There is not a time limit at this point with oil on the job and just the right amount in the rubber you could work at it this way for as long as you like


You can only go doing circles near the end if the shellac is super thin, and you need a bit of shellac in there to body the fine scratches from the last cut back. You have to do circles to not have straight lines all going the same way, and you want to straighten off just enough to take out the last of the across the grain moves and also get rid of the oil.

[auscab]

Here is some pics of bodying.

First is the open grain, after a few brush coats I think, I did this a year back.

Second is the straights and circles then back to straight sticky build with no oil,
see the finger print.

Third is a good flick of oil. linseed

Four is still doing circles pushing down spreading it sideways.

[auscab]

And three more.

A good hard cut back with 400 and oil and turps

The second and third are after the third body, this was then left about a week
before it was given a couple of lighter bodys before going into the final finishing stages [Glazing ]

[Alastair]

Thanks for the tut Rob

For Rob and Nick, I have another version of the Milburn site, but it's on my home PC. The one I think you have seems to have changed. The whole bit about levelling seems to have disappeared, which makes a mockery of the advice, I agree. I'll post the version I have from home.

Regarding the problems I have, I go from the levelled state, (no burn through), and working with thinner shellac, (prob about 1lb cut) actually start out by bodying with circular patterns. No or very little oil. At this point the gloss comes back up very quickly. I then transition to more straight passes and less circular over a period of time, as the gloss builds. Up to the point that it is "almost" good enough for my anal nature.

What I notice is that it seems then to rapidly become very difficult to maintain a cloud, but the finish remains just off full gloss.

Continuing as is, means the gloss starts to retreat, and starts showing streaks. Attempts to regain the cloud by increasing the metho, means it starts to burn the finish, and by the time you fix that, you are starting to get surface lumpiness, and have to look at levelling again. You then loop back to above. Very frustrating.

The point at which it starts to look good

Gloss has come, and then gone off a bit

Gloss gone off, and a bit of burn from too wet a rubber

Looks good here, but not as great up close

[kiwigeo]

Thanks for the tut Rob

For Rob and Nick, I have another version of the Milburn site, but it's on my home PC. The one I think you have seems to have changed. The whole bit about levelling seems to have disappeared, which makes a mockery of the advice, I agree. I'll post the version I have from home.

Regarding the problems I have, I go from the levelled state, (no burn through), and working with thinner shellac, (prob about 1lb cut) actually start out by bodying with circular patterns. No or very little oil. At this point the gloss comes back up very quickly. I then transition to more straight passes and less circular over a period of time, as the gloss builds. Up to the point that it is "almost" good enough for my anal nature.

What I notice is that it seems then to rapidly become very difficult to maintain a cloud, but the finish remains just off full gloss.

Continuing as is, means the gloss starts to retreat, and starts showing streaks. Attempts to regain the cloud by increasing the metho, means it starts to burn the finish, and by the time you fix that, you are starting to get surface lumpiness, and have to look at levelling again. You then loop back to above. Very frustrating.

Try less meths on the pad or adding meths AND a little shellac if you "lose the cloud". I have a scrap piece of spruce that I do a test pad on to check pad load is correct before I go back to the guitar. Getting the pad load just right is a matter of practise.....each time you load the pad the amount you use is going to be different from last time.

My bodying procedure:

1. soak core of pad in meths and squeeze out by pressing against side of meths bottle. Load up pad with 2lb cut shellac and press pad against side of bottle again. Put on cover (worn T shirt). Note pad is loaded before cover is applied...only oil is applied direct to the pad cover. If I lose the cloud during session then I ake cover off and reload the pad with meths and shellac.
2. apply a squirt of walnut oil onto piece of paper and then apply a little to pad using finger.
3. start bodying with circles and figures if eight. Towards end of session pressing harder as pad load decreases.
4. finish with long gliding strokes......pressing fairly hard.

[auscab]

When a french polisher wants a shine straight off the rubber that is more dull than a high shine, he leaves more shellac in the mix at the finishing stage with the oil. The highest shine will be obtained by finishing with a thin mix, which moves out to a 100% metho approaching the end. No doubt about it.

A one pound cut is very thick for finishing with, about 80% of that could be tipped and replaced with metho even more possibly. half way through the finishing stage I just squirt straight metho on to the rubber and if its getting too dry a bit more as needed. My one liter plastic metho bottles have a 1mm hole drilled in the top

I start straight ,its likely that at this point the trail behind the rubber is a bit wet,and any wet is going to have shellac in it . When it's not so wet move to circles and oil,you don't want to see wet drying off behind the rubber you want to see the haze the oil leaves and the small amount of metho mix flash off. moving through to 100% metho but still dry with a faint flash off is like smoothing the icing on a cake. all the solids are down and your dioing circles and eights on top with oil as the lubrication on something that is soft and moving slightly. the balance from circles to straight and then no oil at the end is the tricky bit

The lumps , probably specs of dust, and the colour of a spruce top makes it even stand out more, I was having problems getting mine perfect and I never got it 100% .that's french polishing. a dust free room and no clothes on is all I can think would help. I know a polisher who used to use some negative ion thing, not sure if it's the right name. All floating particles settled, he claimed.

[WaddyT]

My greatest successes have been with a very dry pad. The body sessions go better and the glazing goes better. The only time I have a damp, not wet, pad is when I'm spiriting off after every body session. Glazing is a bit wetter than bodying, but there isn't much shellac in the mix, and no oil. When glazing, I'm at about a 1lb cut, but then I put 1 drop of shellac and 4 drops of alcohol on the pad. I tap it off on a paper towel to reduce the wetness till there is only a spotty mark left.

Martin sounds right to me. The only thing I didn't see was that, at the beginning of the process, when you load the pad with shellac, you should let it sit out for a few hours in a partially open container and let it dry up some. Revive it with alcohol just before starting the body sessions. It's the dried up shellac in the pad that allows an even supply of shellac for the sessions. The few drops you add, bodying,and the alcohol, soften it up and drag it out of the pad, and keep from using too much of the reserve in one session.

I'm no expert, but I don't do a lot of sanding when I'm French polishing. I do, sometimes, use Meguire's Swirl Remover and Show Car Glaze at the end of the process, after it sits for a few days. When I do sand it's because I have had a hang up or worked wet too long. It's a tricky balance.

[kiwigeo]

Martin sounds right to me. The only thing I didn't see was that, at the beginning of the process, when you load the pad with shellac, you should let it sit out for a few hours in a partially open container and let it dry up some. Revive it with alcohol just before starting the body sessions. It's the dried up shellac in the pad that allows an even supply of shellac for the sessions. The few drops you add, bodying,and the alcohol, soften it up and drag it out of the pad, and keep from using too much of the reserve in one session.

My munecas sit in a closed container when not in use so they're already damp when I pull them out for a session.

[peter.coombe]

Listen to Rob. I am no expert, but that is similar to how I have been finishing off my more recent french polishes. Use pure meth (but not too much) on the rubber, and as you go the shellac gets thinner and thinner, and the shine gets shinier and the swirl marks will disappear. Use small amounts of oil, just enough to stop the rubber from sticking. Get it right and there will be no swirl marks left, and the surface will be shiny, so no need for any polish. Practice, practice makes perfect. A good french polish ain't easy, but compared to other finishes it is like opening a window into the wood.

That is me french polishing a mandolin, by the way.

Peter

[nnickusa]

WHAT!?! In the living room? My wife won't go for that

[Tod Gilding]

WHAT!?! In the living room? My wife won't go for that

I build all my Guitars in the living room And French Polish, Doesn't everyone

[Alastair]

That "unsexy" but more complete link, as promised.

http://milburnguitars.com/frenchpolish.html

[auscab]

Alastair your finish looks good and you will get better the more you try, I can see that the flouro globes are more focused in the lower bout than the upper.

The hard thing about touching up a finish on a guitar is the bridge, but what the heck , just keep trying on the back and sides for a while. When it's getting better have a go at the top.

That Milburn link is the one I have been reading, I had the other on another computer but that got lost with the end of that computer. I went searching and did not find the flash one.

My address is on my link , any one can drop in if your passing and have a chat about how to FP any time, we have been doing it since 1957. Our oldest polisher who is not with us any more started his trade in 1914 He used to tell me of the old boys that taught him, they were Victorians, I'm talking the period not the place.
Good attempt Milburn but if the old boys that I knew were to read what is on that link they would bag it ,and at the same time be laughing, sorry but true!

[kiwigeo]

My address is on my link , any one can drop in if your passing and have a chat about how to FP any time, we have been doing it since 1957.

A definite stop off next time Im passing through Melbourne. Thanks for the invite Rob

[Alastair]

Hi Rob,

I'll take you up on that

I come down to Melbourne (fairly) regularly to run factory trials with our 3rd party manufacturer, and usually stay in South Yarra, so I'll get in touch when I next head that way.

Love a stickybeak.

[nnickusa]

Put me down on the list, too. Not bringing the missus---she's after a new dining table, and from the looks, I'm sure we'd leave with one that we probably couldn't afford

[auscab]

That would be great guys , and any one else, just give me a phone call first to let me know, it's on the link as well, Half an hours notice is fine. A more relaxed chat is had from 5pm onwards if it suits.
The name of the business is in the photo of us in 1980 , In that photo there are 5 cabinet makers ,5 french polishers, 1 Upholsterer and three others from neighboring antique shops. These were boom years for the antique business, things have changed a bit since then.

[matthew]

Perhaps a bit heretic but often I layer on a nice thick cut of shellac (I never worry about measuring pounds per gallon) with a brush to build the body coat. If you try this you need to load a good quality very fine wide brush with the stuff, and draw it on in one brush stroke, never go back over. When the coat is dry to touch you can brush on other coats and build the body very quickly this way. You can also wipe it on with a wet muneca, I do this after i have built up a nice coat with the brush.

Then sand/pumice whatever you want to do to level and fill pores, then continue as per the instructions mentioned above. I use olive oil as a lubricant. I load the pad with shellac or straight meths from the front or behind depending on how I want the shellac to come through. Sometimes I load the INSIDE of the pad skin with pumice, it gets "cleared" as it gets pushed through the weave of the pad outer layer.

I use a bigger pad 2" across for big areas and smaller pads 1" across for ... small areas and edges.

I use a rubber band to tie the pad - easy to open - and I keep them like martin does in a closed jar. (The big peanut butter jars with the yellow lids are great)

My teacher once said to me "look after the edges ... the other bits will take care of themselves". it's good advice.

Lastly "Muneca" means "doll" in spanish. I can just imagine them recycling the kids toys in years gone by ...

[nnickusa]

Bah. I'm done for now. I've had 9 double sessions ala' Millburn, so 18+ times 40 minutes. Picked up some Meguire's no 7 today,. and tomorrow is 4 days as recommended by Millburn. Gonna try it out. In the meanwhile, conrtrary to all advice, I've got the bridge, nut and saddle done. Even played "Suzanne" by Leonard Cohen a couple times. I'll have to tweak the saddle a bit for intonation, but it's bloody close...

I hope to have a few photos in the gallery by the weekend..

By the by, I CAN see my face in the back, and for a first one, that's good enough for me. the blackwood one coming....well I might have more patience...it's a beautiful board...

Have I mentioned that I'm not a patient man? I really like the sort-of meditative aspect of making a guitar..It's peaceful....

[charangohabsburg]

I can just imagine them recycling the kids toys in years gone by ...