Calling all Adelaide Luthiers

[Lando]

...i agree with Martin...

sorry Nick i thought it was martin....must be the sheep picture..........strange

sorry nick

[kiwigeo]

...i agree with Martin...

sorry Nick i thought it was martin....must be the sheep picture..........strange

sorry nick

Nick and I are both Kiwis and we call the same city (Christchurch) "home".

[Lando]

...i agree with Martin...

sorry Nick i thought it was martin....must be the sheep picture..........strange

sorry nick

Nick and I are both Kiwis and we call the same city (Christchurch) "home".

yeah i thought of that after, always wanted to go to NZ, my sisters went for 2 weeks, 1 week each island and they said i HAVE to go, its awesome.

anyways, talked with my lecturer again today and we have progressed away from a CF guitar to the posibility of a "eco-friendly" guitar that uses a more sustainable material choices etc.

with this in mind, i need to know why tone-woods like spruce etc are used for soundboards?

what makes them so much better?

and i dont mean i need to know the molecule make-up of the wood, but what is it that these woods does better? is it stifness? vibration? etc...

im all ears ladies and gents

cheers

Lando

[Kim]

Quite simply Lando its all to do with the stiffness to weight ration..On the scale of things the spruces are incredibly light weight for their strength and stiffness, so using spruce for that component of an acoustic guitar most responsible for amplification of sound is a no brainer simply because those properties allow the builder to make the top very thin and brace it very lightly so it is responsive insomuch that it becomes more easily exited by the vibration from the strings....i.e. spruce is very efficient in that role and it is difficult to imagine anything else which could cover 'all' the bases so well....There are alternatives of course, but most seem to come with some compromise.

By the way, that is not to say that the 'thinnest possible' within structural requirements is the very best thing for all occasions, but choosing a material with properties to get you there offers the builder the scope to investigate the most possibilities as all options remain on the table.

Cheers

Kim

[kiwigeo]

I'd like to see an edible guitar......if the thing starts sounding like sh*t.....you can eat it and turn it into sh*t.

[Lando]

ha ha ha

maybe i will look into that one Martin, maybe a i can wind strings out of fairy floss! woo now we are getting somewhere ha ha

so something like spruce is good because it has a good stiffness to weight ratio and because of this the vibrations can easily "excite" the soundboard.

So would there be any other woods that would be good to use for other different reasons? like are thier other woods used for soundboards that have certain properties that are unique to that tone-wood?

whats the most bizzare wood someone has used for a soundboard?

cheers

Lando

[Trevor Gore]

whats the most bizzare wood someone has used for a soundboard?

Try looking here: viewforum.php?f=25
There's a great variety of woods being used; how sustainable is another issue. If you're looking for sustainable, it probably has to be plantation wood or re-growth in forests felled long ago, which limits the choice. It also brings into the equation the question of crop cycle, growth rate, etc. and how much processing has to be done from plantation to player. For example, reconstituted bamboo has been used in guitars and hemp could likely be a candidate. Personally, I would recommend against trying to invent the material; been a lot of train wrecks down that track. Find something that already exists and put it to a new use, but natural wood is pretty hard to beat!

[woodrat]

Lando, you can still build a soundboard with too much spruce in it (too stiff) so it does not use the string energy efficiently. It could be too heavy and too stiff....you would be looking to find a low density example with good stiffness and then thin it to an appropriate stiffness and use it in conjunction with bracing of appropriate stiffness. Its a balancing act.

John

[Lando]

Thanks woodrat, so there is a fine line between the right stiffness in the wood etc. i thought this might be the case because dealing with vibrations you dont want something so stiff the vibrations "die" but not too flimsy that the energy is wasted...right?

and Trev, i had actually decided today at uni that i would focus on materials like bamboo and hemp.
i was thinking bamboo guitar and a hemp gig bag? sustainable combo pack! WOO!

ive been reading into it and i found that Yamaha produced a limited number of an All bamboo acoustic guitar some years ago but they, apparently it had quite a nice voice, so that gets me excited to see what it might sound like.

sad thing is that these guitars are very thin on the ground and not many people know much about them. i know they were discontinued because sales were low, but their pitch about sustainability sits well with what im aiming for.

going to be interesting to revive the bamboo acoustic and add my own flavour to it

cheers guys and gal

Lando

[kiwigeo]

There are a few bamboo road bikes around.....frames made from bamboo.

[nnickusa]

There was, in fact, a Japanese brand in the 70's called "Bambu" that made at least some elements of thier guitars from bambu. It needed to be laminated. Bambu is very stiff, and I'm not sure it would be suitable for acoustic applications.....I'll try to find a link referring to these guitars, but not till tomorrow...I'm for bed soon....

If you went bambu, and had to laminate lots of strips, I'd like to see a bowl-back like an Ovation, and that might lend itself to that, but it'd be a ton of work...

In fact, I'm thinking about just that, but not from bambu. Just gotta figure it out

But, not the next one...That's a blackwood dreadnaught, then I start selling some acoustics....Not the ones I make--who'd want to buy one of them.....

[Bob Connor]

How about something like this.

osb.jpg (54.17 KiB) Viewed 19907 times

Back sides and top are made of OSB. I can't remember the blokes name who built it but I've played it when I was in the States a few years ago and it sounds remarkably good considering what it is. (that dapper gent looking on is JJ Donohue who some of you are aquainted with)

Or take some inspiration from Torres who built a classical guitar with cardboard back and sides. A luthier in the US replicated this effort a short while ago. I can't remember who it was but it was documented on the OLF.

Taylor have made an instrument from an old pallet.

Another thing to bear in mind is that Jeffrey Yong has been building beautiful sounding guitars with Monkeypod with has a tap tone like wet cardboard.

And Trevor Gore and Peter Coombe have recently made instruments with Radiata Pine tops which is discussed in a thread here.

So there's a range of sustainable, recycled and plantation options for your consideration.

Regards

[Lillian]

Bob, that would be John Ressler of Ressler Custom Guitars. The guitar is mid way down the page.

[Bob Connor]

Thanks Lillian.

Just goes to show it was OK if he built two of them

From memory that green one has a Joe White finish on it so he didn't mind spending a few bucks on it.

[peter.coombe]

And Trevor Gore and Peter Coombe have recently made instruments with Radiata Pine tops which is discussed in a thread here.

Yep, it is certainly possible to make fine sounding instruments with Pinus radiata tops. Plantation grown and readily available, so is an obvious choice. Another possibility is plantation grown Hoop Pine, also not difficult to get. Oregon makes good bracewood, and it is not difficult to find recycled Oregon. The main problem is finding pieces that are quarter sawn. What about African Mahogany for back and sides and neck. It is grown in plantations in NT, and is a declared weed in some parts of Queensland, but can make very fine sounding guitars. There must be other weedy hardwoods around that I don't know about (e.g. Camphor laurel).

It is surprisingly difficult to find wood that is sustainable, but also readily available. I used recycled Ash in my Pinus radiata mandolin, which is a good "green" choice, but availabilty is a problem, so is not really sustainable. The vast majority of hardwood plantations are blue gum which is better off wood chipped, than used in a music instrument. Bamboo is not readily available to most of us who don't live in the tropics.

Peter

[Allen]

Micheal has built some instruments out of Camphor Laurel and they look, sound and smell fantastic. I've got a uke set that I need to get together one of these days.

[peter.coombe]

One thing that occurred to me while lying in bed trying to sleep last night is that it is possible to get high quality European Spruce that has been sustainably logged. The wood is FSC certified. The Americans are not logging their Spruce sustainably, so forget north American Spruce species. Europe has a mixed history of forest devastation as well as centuries of sustainable logging in some parts of Europe. European Spruce trees only live up to a maximum 300years old, so any tree older than around 200years is well into old age and is going to die a natural death in the not too distant future. This is in contrast to many native Australian trees, and North American Spruces that live much longer. So, a European Spruce tree 200 years old is "old growth". So long as the logging rotation period is long enough, then regrowth becomes "old growth" because the trees are near the end of their natural life. So, with a bit of forest research work it is possible to work out how much wood can be sustainably harvested each year. If you know the growth rate, the age distribution of the trees, the forest area, the density of the trees in the forest etc, then you can work out how much "old growth" can be removed each year without affecting the total biomass of "old growth" in the forest. If the rotation period is 200+, then the "old growth" is actually regrowth from logging carried out more than 200 years ago. This sort of information is needed for FSC certification in order to prove that the wood is actually being sustainably harvested. So, contrary to what the green side of politics are saying, it is possbile to sustainably log old growth forest so long as the rotation period is long enough and the trees are selectively harvested. Unfortunately that is not happening in Australia, but it is much more difficult because the trees take longer to reach old age. King Billy Pine or Huon Pine, for example, can live for several thousand years, and many Eucalyptus species are barely into middle age at 200 years of age. Our logging rotation preiods are much too short, and are usually calculated to grow young trees just big enough to feed the woodchip mills. High value lumber, forgetaboutit.

So, don't completley reject Spruce. In some parts of the world (e.g. Switzerland) Spruce tonewood is being sustainably harvested.

Peter

[Lando]

hey guys and gals, just a quick update

im still writing my brief for my project, its a long and boring process

as im getting more into it im seeing that there will be a choice i have to make,

will the guitar be made from either reclaimed/recycled materials, like the pallet guitar Taylor made.

http://www.laguitarsales.com/pages/3157 ... Pallet.htm

OR

a sustainably harvested material like fast growing woods or bamboos etc,like yamaha with the FGB1 bamboo guitar

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical- ... mode=model

OR

like Peter said, something sustainably harvested like the spruce he mentioned in Switzerland


its a tough choice, but thats what the next step, the research, will help me decide on.

cheers all

Lando

[Lando]

hey guys and gals

just found out Martin have a sustainable materials series of guitar, they maintain that the majority of wood used is from sustainably harvested sources.

so obviously there is a market out there for the sustainably minded guitarist....phew

also just for fun i had a look at thier most expensive guitar,

say holly molly to the $109,999 D-100 Deluxe
http://www.martinguitar.com/index.php?o ... e&Itemid=8

its actually a little bit insane, and its using some mental materials.

crazy stuff

[jeffhigh]

Oh Gawd that is ugly
Looks like an instrument made by some Vietnamese or Taiwanese Ebay sellers that I have seen.

[Allen]

Isn't that Larry Robinsions design for their 1,000,000 guitar?

[nnickusa]

Antonio Tsai rides again.

Butt ugly and for real, 110K? You have GOT to be kidding. That'd be US price too. Closer to $150K by the time it landed in Oz....

MAYBE, if they made ONE, at exactly the 1,000,000th mark. But a series.....

[Lillian]

Isn't that Larry Robinsions design for their 1,000,000 guitar?

Don't know about Larry's involvement, but from their website:

"To celebrate the unprecedented industry milestone of their 1,000,000th guitar, C.F. Martin & Co. has created a spectacular commemorative edition instrument. The D-100 Deluxe combines rare tonewoods and elaborate inlays in a breathtaking example of the guitar builder’s art. Quite simply, this masterpiece guitar is one of the most beautiful models that Martin has ever offered.
List Price: $109,999.00"


I find the price tag as nauseating as the all the inlay, way over the top.

[Nick]

Sustainable materials?? Looks like they've wiped out the entire pearl beds of the U.S of A to 'adorn' the bloody thing. Yuck & Ick and all those other horrible words rolled into one!

[Trevor Gore]

"To celebrate the unprecedented industry milestone of 1,000,000 words written, Gore Guitars, has created a spectacular commemorative edition instrument. The SheD-100 Dulux combines rare skip woods and no inlays in a breathtaking example of the guitar builder’s science. Quite simply, this masterpiece guitar sounds better than the most beautiful models that Martin has ever offered.
List Price: Priceless"

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=3842#p45840
(Just thought I'd put the focus back on what these things are about )

Just waiting for some glue to set up, really...