Design considerations for a guitar for a 6YO?

[Shane Woonton]

Hi guys,

I've got 2 questions but will post them separately to avoid confusing myself. My 6YO wants me to build her a guitar(s).

The design brief is this - Dad, I don't like my ukulele cause it doesn't sound like your guitar!

So, I need to build a small acoustic that sounds (at least a little bit) like dad's guitar. I hope it will last her a few years so we're talking 6 - 10 years old. I assume I should be thinking nylon string simply for easy action on little fingers, but could be persuaded otherwise.

I would love to hear suggestions as to: body size, scale length, other factors to consider? Anyone done something similar that worked for their child? And any direction towards an appropriate bracing pattern or suggested mods to a full-size bracing pattern would be much appreciated.

I have some sitka and mahogany set aside for the project. Also have WRC available but am tending towards the sitka to better deal with the expected 6YO acrobatics.

Cheers,

Shane

[ozziebluesman]

G'day Shane,

A Martin style size 5 would be a good choice.

Have a look at the one Allen built some time back:

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=667

Even adults like to play these little guitars. Great to sit with on the sofa and pick a few tunes with.

Basically, it's a three quarter guitar.

I would go with steel strings on the size 5 instead of nylon. There are some silk and steel strings available that are kind to little fingers.

Cheers

Alan

[Allen]

One option is to go with a Baritone Uke but go with six strings, instead of the usual 4. A heck of a lot easier to find a case for one over the Style 5. But if it's a guitar you are really after, then the Style 5 is by far my favourite.

I've got my first baritone on the go and am using a 20" scale length. Most Baritone ukes are 19" but I asked around and it seems that the higher end ones go with just a bit longer scale to get more tension on those strings, as they are tuned just like a guitar.

Another option is to put a low G on her uke. That tends to make the guitar people a little more comfortable. The re-entrant tuning tends to put them off. I've always got a couple of them strung up this way for the markets. You can pick the guitar players out of the crowd. They always prefer the low G.

[Shane Woonton]

Hi Allen,
I like the idea of the 6-string baritone uke. I had contemplated a 4-string baritone but figured she wouldn't be happy with anyhitng with less strings than dad's .
Cheers,
Shane

[seeaxe]

Or you could do something like this....

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=2655

Basically, its a scale model of a Grellier OM, its tuned to G instead of E but otherwise its a normal guitar. I would not discount steel strings, (especially if yours has steel strings!), if you get the action right I reckon they are easier to play than nylon string guitars.

I'll be interested to see how you get on, as I am currently teaching my 11 month old grand daughter to play - she is up to whacking the strings with her hands and hooking her fingers around them and seeing how far they stretch before I start having palpitations, so about good enough to get on a Brit reality show.



Cheers
Richard

[Allen]

Baritone Ukes are 14" long in the body. 10" across the lower bout, and 3" deep body. Mine is using a 20" scale length with a 12th fret body join.

The Style 5 would be the next size up from that with about a 16" long body. 11.5" across the lower bout and 21 3/4" scale length. But cases have to be special ordered. Only place I've found them is through Cedar Creek. They also need to be tuned up to Terz tuning.

[Shane Woonton]

Thanks for the dimensions Allen, that gives me a bit more food for thought. Thinking about it from a longevity perspective the size 5 might be the way to go, even if it takes her a little longer to grow into it. Can you give me any advice on the bracing for this style? Anything that has worked particularly well for you or that you would do differently from your experience?

Also, does anyone have any advice on fretboard radius for small hands? Is there a common rule of thumb (ie. flatter works better for small hands)?

Thanks,

Shane

[Allen]

If you are going to go with the Style 5 then the shape I used was from Scott Antes 3/4 guitar (similar to style 5). It's overbuilt to buggery, so you have to make everything lighter.

They are a beautiful guitar, and while it's small and people may think its for kids, they really are amazing instruments. If she stays with the guitar then it's one that will stay with her for the rest of her life.

I've done 2 of them. The first with a Western Red Cedar top and the second with a Adirondack top. The Adi topped one being by far the best sounding guitar I've ever built. Hard to give you dimensions on tops and braces as the cedar is so soft and the Adi is so hard and stiff that they were miles apart. But for sure don't go with the cedar for a kid. They'll beat the crap out of it in no time.

In fact, I would even consider going with a hardwood top like an all Mahogany or all Blackwood instrument.

Fret board radius was 16" on these, but for small hands I might consider something as small as 12".

[Mike Lindstrom]

I did one for my nephew a couple years ago. I wanted one that wouldn't just be a kids' guitar that he would outgrow. I ended up using the Antes parlor plan, left the bracing pattern, but much much lighter. I changed the neck to a 13 fret join, and a 24.9 scale. I was going to go with silk and steels, but it sounded so much better with real strings on it.

I loved it. He almost didn't get to keep it. It's a fun little guitar that just calls you to pick it up. It is a little difficult for him to play (especially since he isn't a practicer yet), but he's nine now and it's passable for his hands.

Mike

[Shane Woonton]

Thanks for the replies! I found this link to Kathy Matsushita's site where she documents a build of a size 5.
http://home.comcast.net/~kathymatsushit ... five1.html

It fills in most of the blanks for me and I think that is the direction I will head. I like the idea of building my daughter something she will have (and use) for a very long time. I'll let you know how it goes.

Cheers,

Shane

[DennisK]

Size 5 sounds good to me. I'm finishing up one based on this (documented here), which is similar size, and sounds fantastic. Definitely a "real guitar". Steel strings might be harder to coax a good sound out of such a tiny box, but I'd still like to give it a try sometime. I would say maybe go a little shorter on the scale length for a 6 year old... 24" should be fine for standard tuning, and probably could get away with even shorter using heavy strings. Haans has been building steel strings with 22.875" scale, as seen here, so you might ask him for tips.

You could also do a slight Manzer wedge to make it more comfortable to hold. Obviously not an issue for adults with such a small guitar, but I don't think it would be any less comfortable for me if I'd wedged it, and should be nice for short arms

You can make these things extremely light weight, if you play your cards right... which makes it still more comfortable. Mine is under 900g, and nicely balanced (not neck heavy). I used the lightest Spanish cedar blank I had, and a thin headstock with friction pegs and rosewood fingerboard. Wouldn't recommend friction pegs for a child, but you could use planetary gear pegs, which are almost as light, or Gotoh stealth tuners which aren't too heavy either. Bolt-on neck would also add weight from the larger headblock structure and the metal, but probably worth it if doing steel string since there's always the possibility it will need a reset eventually, and she will hopefully have it for a very long time Not as bad for balance as adding weight to the headstock anyway.

[Shane Woonton]

Hi Dennis, thanks for those links. Some really interesting stuff there.

Cheers,

Shane

[kiwigeo]

Size 5 sounds good to me. I'm finishing up one based on this (documented here), which is similar size, and sounds fantastic.

An interesting build Dennis. You're using the Spanish Method but you don't appear to be using a work board? How do you set the rake on the neck before gluing the back on?

[DennisK]

Size 5 sounds good to me. I'm finishing up one based on this (documented here), which is similar size, and sounds fantastic.

An interesting build Dennis. You're using the Spanish Method but you don't appear to be using a work board? How do you set the rake on the neck before gluing the back on?

Just eyeball it with a straight edge along the neck-to-bridge path when gluing on the back. Get all the spool clamps on except for the ones above the widest part of the upper bout (so it can flex), squeeze some glue into the heel, stick on a cam clamp with light pressure, crank the neck forward or back however much you want, and tighten down the clamp. Check with straight edge to see if it's where you want, and once you're happy, continue on around the rest of the back removing a few spool clamps at a time and squeezing glue into the gap. Not super accurate, but gets you close, and then you can fine tune with the fingerboard thickness. This one came out just like I wanted, almost flat, but a slight forward angle.

I've never had to do a neck reset on a Spanish heel guitar, but the procedure should be pretty much the same as this. It puzzles me that classical guitars usually have a foot on the headblock, and steel strings don't... yet, the foot makes a heel slip reset much more difficult since you have to get it separated from the back, and then precisely shimmed to mate with it at the new angle. That's why on mine, I made the heel contact with the back quite small, but put some sturdy A-frame braces beside it to perform the structural role of the foot. If I ever have to reset it, the braces stay glued to the back, and the headblock will need very little sanding/shimming, if any.

[kiwigeo]

Thanks Dennis. Your comments about the spanish foot make a fair bit of sense. My first build was an OM build using the Spanish method as per Jim William's book.