Acoustic guitar pickups

[Tod Gilding]

I have been doing a lot of research on Acoustic Pickups, making my own, but also using purchased systems, I am finding that guitars that would be considered less than perfect when played acoustically are by far better with piezo / UST than a guitar that we would consider to be a good guitar, my best guitars acoustically suffer from microphonics, string squeel, even just hands on the instrument and not the best sound when played through a PA . by far the best guitar (through PA ) to date has been a friends travell guitar that does not have a body, it's just a length of wood ,basically
I am finding better results with resonant guitars when I really insulate the piezo's from the guitars body by encaseing them in wood of varying densities
Another recent point is the photo of the broken Cole Clark in the post re the Gore Course, this CC has an aluminium brace that the piezo is attached and as the guy's on the course pointed out, this is not conducive to good modal mobility , but it seems that it is very good for a guitar that will played through a PA system due to the insulation from the guitars body. these CC's are the best guitars that I have heard when played through a PA, but find them lacking acoustically.

Can anyone add anything to my findings ? are you finding the same results.

[jeffhigh]

I'd love to make a guitar that can do it all Todd, let's start thinking, there must be a market for a device that can deaden a guitar for high volume stage use other than the ubiquitous soundhole plug.
Preferably something operated by a discrete switch or lever

[Tod Gilding]

Exactly what I'm looking for Jeff or at least an acceptable method. and possibly Trevor/Gerards books may have given me a clue.

But I thought I would throw it out to the forum members to double check that my findings so far are correct.

I am assuming Jeff by your reply that you have found the same thing regarding piezo's

[Bob Connor]

I reckon they are two different instruments. That is the responsive, lightly built recording or home player will never cut it on stage as you just can't get the volume before feedback and other unwanted resonances.

There is a reason that you'll see a band like the Eagles all playing Takamines on stage but they ain't the acoustics they record with. I've got Taki which has a highly figured Maple top on it. Sounds like crap un-amplified and very quiet, but throw a feedback buster in it and you can crank it up quite loud on stage.

I built a stage guitar prototype last year which featured no soundhole, heavy bracing and a reasonably thick Engelmann top on it. It had a EMG UST and a K & K pure western in it. There's a thread on here somewhere about it. Anyway, I wasn't too happy with the volume levels before feedback so I routed the top off and whacked a Blackwood on it last week.

I'll resurrect the old thread and add to it once I've got it back together and given it a run.

If you want a dual purpose instrument you'll probably end up with something that sounds like a Maton or a Cole Clark, neither of which is my cup of tea.

Regards

[Tod Gilding]

Thanks Bob ,

"I reckon they are two different instruments"
Exactly what I have found.

Well everything you said Bob, Is exactly what I am Finding, I was only trying to insulate the piezo enough that it may replicate the type of instrument that could played on stage like your Taki I know it's a long shot, but why not have a go . I've got the time
But I will say that after seeing that CC with the aluminium brace I am also starting to doubt that it could be done with a responsive instrument, what would you insulate it from the body with ?

[jeffhigh]

I wonder whether you could use something like a snare drum head damper bearing on the top/back

[Tod Gilding]

Bob , I am about to start( well Soonish) building a trevor Gore med SS with the the Falcate, side Mass Etc, I think I might sandwich a couple of piezo's between the sides and the plate that has the mass bolted to it and see what happens.

[jeffhigh]

Bob , I am about to start( well Soonish) building a trevor Gore med SS with the the Falcate, side Mass Etc, I think I might sandwich a couple of piezo's between the sides and the plate that has the mass bolted to it and see what happens.

I think that will just give you such low output on the piezos, you will need to turn up the volume on the amp excessively.

[Tod Gilding]

"I wonder whether you could use something like a snare drum head damper bearing on the top/back'

Thanks Jeff, Hope you don't mind if I try That.

[Tod Gilding]

"I think that will just give you such low output on the piezos, you will need to turn up the volume on the amp excessively."

You are probably right Jeff and if so, then I only need to cut the wires and all is good.

[woodrat]

Jeff, Trevor mentioned a "Stage Guitar" at the course... he was referring to one with a non-live back...I have a couple of guitars to make for performers in the next couple of months and they will be stage guitars and I will make them Non-live backs....

John

[jeffhigh]

Yes John, a non live back is a good start, and a less responsive top too.
I'm just wondering if it it would be possible to build a great, optimally responsive acoustic guitar with an ajustable damper so that you could instantly have a guitar suitable for at least medium volume stage work.
It would be a great marketing feature.
I'll let it mull around in my head for a while.

[woodrat]

Jeff, I will have to talk about this with both customers when I see them about their new guitars. I loaned a guitar to one of them to do a gig recently at a pub in Port Macquarie and he didnt mention anything about any feedback problems. He just loved it. I will hopefully be starting both guitars in February. Please post your conclusions after you mull it through:)

John

[jeffhigh]

If you look at Tommy E's stage guit well its a maton to start with and then a soundhole plug, it would sound pretty horrible unamplified.

[Tod Gilding]

Jeff, I was back in the shed this morning with the PA cranked. I placed 3 piezo elements onto a small piece of blackwood drilled a 6mm hole through it slid a dowel through the hole , fitted the dowell between a back brace and the bridge plate. really stuffed the sound of the guitar, but best results that I have had (through the PA ) also used a soundhole plug, no feedback at high volumes, this could possibly be the answer, a removable Piezo with a 1/8" jack fitted to the guitars side.

[woodrat]

Tod, Can you bring that when you visit? I'd like a demo:)

John

[Tod Gilding]

Yeah, no prob John.

[Clancy]

I remember a guitar featured on the back page on an 'Acoustic Guitar, magazine from 3 yrs ago (or there abouts).
It was made by a swiss guy and had a in-built rod with some ebony on one side (like a cam).
When you rotated the rod the ebony pressed against the top to dampen it.

[Kim]

I remember a guitar featured on the back page on an 'Acoustic Guitar, magazine from 3 yrs ago (or there abouts).
It was made by a swiss guy and had a in-built rod with some ebony on one side (like a cam).
When you rotated the rod the ebony pressed against the top to dampen it.

Now 'that' is a clever idea...sounds like the kind of lateral solution I would expect our Swiss mate Markus came up with..must be something in the water over there.

Cheers

Kim

[charangohabsburg]

[...] must be something in the water over there.

Pure milk (no water to be added):


youtu.be/

[Kim]

Sorry Markus but I simple do not believe that advertisement is true.

Every single time I've witnessed bovine flamenco dancing in person there has always been 'plenty' of beer involved.

Cheers

Kim

[kiwigeo]

[...] must be something in the water over there.

Pure milk (no water to be added):


youtu.be/

Silly cow(s)

[charangohabsburg]

I knew these intellicows™ will be hard to accept for you Aussies and Kiwis!

Funny (ok, Martin will find it silly) that the milk advertising in english is the only one that mentions beer, not a single one in german or french does mention beer at all.

[Trevor Gore]

The conventional answer is two different instruments. Building electro-acoustics then leaving the electrics out and calling them acoustics is where most of the factory makers have gone wrong (well, one place they've gone wrong...).

Another way of killing some feedback is to use in-ear monitoring rather than wedges on stage. The sound hole pickups (look like humbuckers) give an OK sound and are more feedback resistant than piezos. Those wanting to try another way might want to try using a temporary "sound post" wedged between the top and the back. If it works, let us all know. It's then just a matter of engineering in an easily switchable solution (e.g like the cam suggested above).

[Tod Gilding]

Thanks for that input Trevor, I'm just one of those people, that gets enjoyment from playing around with things and trying to do it better, I don't normally get it better, but get enjoyment in the attempt, call me mad . It's like the old saying goes, " those that say it can't be done, should not bother those that are doing it" .

I will soon be starting a med SS incorporating Falcate Braceing, live back , side mass and most of your idea's for my perfect guitar, but to make it my perfect Guitar, I would like to incorporate a pickup , and have chosen a fishman Preamp with UST (yes I am going to cut a hole in the side for the preamp). anyway if it turns out to be the guitar that I expect it will be , then I am concerned that the sound when played through a PA will at best be average, this is the reason behind looking for some way of doing it better, the soundpost idea seems to work well with the guitars that I have tried it with, but I have decided to put this on hold until I build the new guitar and then look for way's of improving the amplified sound if need be.