Potentially disasterous end to the year

[kiwigeo]

What's the worst thing you can do when doing a hide glue job.....shut up the shop and go to bed leaving the glue bath on. I woke up this morning and went out to the shop and wondered why the wax bath I use for heating my hide glue didnt have any water in it. I then noticed the bldi thing was still turned on........the pot had boiled dry over night. Luck was on my side and the pot hadn't melted or set fire to the shop. I'm still kicking myself for leaving the thing turned on...the tonewood vault would have kept the blaze going for days.

Work safe....

[Clancy]

I'dve sent flowers to the 'Tonewood Shrine'. Or should that be a coldie to pour on the black patch?

[kiwinoz62]

Martin that was extremely lucky, would have been a disaster to have your stash of tonewood go up in smoke.
So easy to leave things switched on, that's why whenever I finish using something I always turn it off or put it away out of harms way.
It may be a tedious way to work but it saves damaging the current build your working on.
My Mrs, reckons I'm bloody mad to put something away only to go get the same item 5 minutes later, lol.

[Dominic]

Very lucky Martin, too many house fires over Xmas but I bet none from using hide glue. Another reason to stick with LMI white.

Its not just wood either. If your shop is anything like mine it is packed with not just nice planes and chisels and obvious tools but also special little tools and odd shaped bits of metal of all sorts I've accumulated over years, super refined jigs etc etc plans and ideas, stuff that I have spent a fortune in money and/or time on and would be near impossible to replace and set me back years and years. It would be a disaster.

Dom

[Allen]

Make yourself a sign that says "GLUE POT ON?" or similar and hang it on the door knob to the shed every single time you use the glue pot.

[Kim]

Put it on a supply timer, set it for an hr or 2 and save all the angst...



As for sticking with LMI white glue Dom, I would never consider limiting my options to just one glue product.

Quite frankly the extra cost involved, both in purchase price and shipping leave me scratching my head trying to understand the point in using the LMI product here in AU/NZ. Hide glue works far better 'for me' in all applications where LMI glue is meant to out shine plain old yellow glue. For those applications where the LMI product has no real advantage over regular AR glues such as TiteBond, I'm happy to use AR because its an excellent glue and far cheaper to buy.

On a side note, for a long time now I've had my suspicions that LMI white is simply re-badged WeldBond..That's the Canadian made stuff now distributed by Bunnings..... Its primarily a wood glue but seems to glue most things far better than standard PVA/AR. As I recall I first bought the product from Gerard Gilet a good number of years ago before it was widely available. Back then Gerard had it listed on his text based website recommending it for gluing the plastic bindings he also sold.

weldbond_bottle.jpg (17.48 KiB) Viewed 18188 times

I am fully aware of the "Weld-On" product that is often recommended for bonding plastic bindings but I used "WeldBond" as pictured and it worked just fine with the bindings still in place years on. Why would I consider that WeldBond and LMI white are one and the same? Well, its white in colour, dries faster than standard PVA/AR, dries harder than standard PVA/AR, in fact is quite brittle when fully cured, it dries to be more clear than standard PVA/AR....and....LMI don't make glues...they only sell glues, so what ever their glue is is, its bound to be re-branded something or other and WeldBond ticks every one of the boxes.

Cheers

Kim

[MBP]

A good one is a LED in the power plug. That way you can see its on, if your working late its so obvious.

If its a solid colour one just cut it off and replace it with a waterproof screw on one.

How much wood do you have it will burn for a few days?
We need some photos of your stash.

[liam_fnq]

simple.

run the pot off the lights circuit. When you turn the lights off to leave the pot turns off.

[auscab]

I use two ways to remember,
one is a paper clip on my key ring that I can attach notes to, that just means I get the reminder before I go home though.

The other way is the count down timer on my mobile phone for when I'm melting down large pots of wax , it goes off every 3 or five minutes. my problem is getting distracted with phone calls , staff and customers.

[kiwigeo]

Thanks for all the suggestions people. The plug timer is the simplest and most effective way of dealing with the issue.....has been actioned.

The wax pot I use for heating up glue has proven a robust little appliance. Even though it boiled dry it didnt overheat and it still works. Bought it from Carbatec a few years back..

[Dominic]

Put it on a supply timer, set it for an hr or 2 and save all the angst...



As for sticking with LMI white glue Dom, I would never consider limiting my options to just one glue product.

Quite frankly the extra cost involved, both in purchase price and shipping leave me scratching my head trying to understand the point in using the LMI product here in AU/NZ. Hide glue works far better 'for me' in all applications where LMI glue is meant to out shine plain old yellow glue. For those applications where the LMI product has no real advantage over regular AR glues such as TiteBond, I'm happy to use AR because its an excellent glue and far cheaper to buy.

On a side note, for a long time now I've had my suspicions that LMI white is simply re-badged WeldBond..That's the Canadian made stuff now distributed by Bunnings..... Its primarily a wood glue but seems to glue most things far better than standard PVA/AR. As I recall I first bought the product from Gerard Gilet a good number of years ago before it was widely available. Back then Gerard had it listed on his text based website recommending it for gluing the plastic bindings he also sold.

weldbond_bottle.jpg

I am fully aware of the "Weld-On" product that is often recommended for bonding plastic bindings but I used "WeldBond" as pictured and it worked just fine with the bindings still in place years on. Why would I consider that WeldBond and LMI white are one and the same? Well, its white in colour, dries faster than standard PVA/AR, dries harder than standard PVA/AR, in fact is quite brittle when fully cured, it dries to be more clear than standard PVA/AR....and....LMI don't make glues...they only sell glues, so what ever their glue is is, its bound to be re-branded something or other and WeldBond ticks every one of the boxes.

Cheers

Kim

I don't know about the cost argument, its $8.00 a bottle plus a bit for postage depending on what else is in your order, titebond is about the same price here by volume, maybe a bit cheaper. Its like $1 per guitar, probably a lot less. I just like it because it grabs a lot faster than titebond. TB is really slippery.

But the point is you won't burn down your house using white or yellow glue. And Martins post is a reminder to everyone of the risks of using heating devices in a workshop full of wood . As to cost I bet he chewed up more than a buck worth of electricity just in boiling his pot dry over night.

Anyway, I just hope I never read that any one of us has had a fire in our workshops. As I said before, it would be a disaster.
So have a safe and productive 2012 everyone.
Dom

[Kim]

Oh com'on Dom, you've just got a grip against HHG because it did not work well for you. Nobody is going to burn down their shop or anything else with HHG if they simply put the warmer on a timer. To be honest, even without a fail safe being employed, I think this topic has confused actual risk with perceived risk. I use Phillips "Avent" baby food warmer for heating my glue, can anybody point to a single instance where this product has been known to cause a fire when left to dry out?? I done a search and found plenty of hits where a cheap $20 Chinese knock off of the Avent called 'Munchkin' had caused damage to bench tops etc when left unattended, 9 instances in all before the product was recalled but no house fires..But despite the Avent being on the market for many, many, years, I can't find a single thing on them other than users stating they have left theirs on unattended countless times and it had cause no damage.

I would imagine this is because water volumes are so small, even when full, that the element would need to be very small draw for the thermostat to have any control to the degree of accuracy required for baby food. I would also imagine that the element is well isolated and designed to trip an overload so it would cycle rather than continuing to heat until it could melt the housing or a caused fire. Lets not forget we are talking a setting of only 60c for HHG and I reckon if left on the unit would have less draw than a 60watt bulb...Besides, can you imagine the press and enquiries to follow ..EXTRA!! EXTRA!!! READ ALL ABOUT IT!!! EXHAUSTED MOTHER AND CHILD INCINERATED WHILE SLEEPING BY UNATTENDED BABY FOOD WARMER....So yes by all means lets play it safe, but the sensationaly 'lucky' aversion of disaster being portrayed here would more accurately have been a 'likely' out come of design, its simply not 'that' bad.

Back to glue..Because its a "consumable", I would not want to have the cost of my purchase determined by the size of my tool order from a specific vendor no matter how good they are. I already have most of what I need in that regard and therefore for me, you "little bit of shipping" becomes potentially much, much, more than the glue itself costs and to what benefit? Also there's the matter of the 2 weeks wait for delivery and the potential for the product to become degraded in performance by exposure to sub zero temperatures whilst airfreighted and being moved from one plane to the next on its way to AU...A trip to Bunnings, as unpleasant as that can be, at least sees me back home again with cheaper fresh glue, in under 30min from the time I decided I need some more...and if I don't like standard AR, I can simply buy WeldBond to obtain all the pluses that are touted by LMI white.

Cheers

Kim

[kiwigeo]

..A trip to Bunnings, as unpleasant as that can be, at least sees me back home again with cheaper fresh glue....

A trip to Bunnings goes beyond unpleasant....I come out of the place wanting to cause serious physical harm to someone.

[Kim]

It ain't so bad, the secret is to keep your expectations low, NEVER ask for assistance, and grunt a lot with a disapproving scowl on your face....if the line at the checkout is too long, a quick bout of feigned tourette's syndrome soon has you relegated to the front of the line at one of the previously vacant tills that miraculously opened right next to you....if your doing this properly, not only won't they check your receipt on the way out....but next time as you enter the store, the door greeter will look the other way instead of making you vomit at the level of insincerity in their 'paid by the hour' "GOOD MORNING SIR, HOW ARE YOU TODAY"....like they really give two pinches of goat shit whether or not you get tuned into a spreadable condiment by a speeding truck out front as you make your way to ur car still gagging after their even less sincere, paid by the hour..HAVE A GREAT DAY!


Happy New Year..

Cheers

Kim

[jeffhigh]

Unfortunately the service at Bunnings is BETTER than I got at my local family run hardware shop before they went out of business or at the nearby Trade oriented place.

[rocket]

Geez Martin i'm glad your stash is safe and didn't go up in flames! just as well too coz the size of your stash,,, it would have put the Coode Island refinery blaze to shame i reckon!!
Glad to hear the stash vault is cool and dry, happy new year
Cheers,,,

Rod.

[MBP]

Geez Martin i'm glad your stash is safe and didn't go up in flames! just as well too coz the size of your stash,,, it would have put the Coode Island refinery blaze to shame i reckon!!
Glad to hear the stash vault is cool and dry, happy new year
Cheers,,,

Rod.

Come on... we have to see this stash if its as big as they say.

[Dominic]

Kim, it was Martin who said he nearly had a disaster and burnt his work shop down, not me. Perhaps you should address your upper case comments to him. And from the amount of words you have written it appears you are the one with the problem with LMI glue. The LMI site says it is specifically made for instrument makers, so I doubt very much you can buy it in Bunnings. No need to argue though, I'll write to them and ask if their instrument makers glue is weld-on.

But I think you are getting a little personal again suggesting I can't use these products, implying it is my lack of skill, that it didn't work for me, that I should not rely on one product as you have claimed. I don't have anything against HHG I just find that for a glue that needs all this prep in my workshop it is just not worth the hassle. My WS is very cool even in summer and so I have to heat the wood as well and I like to use Vac for braces and HHG won't work for that. I use a range of glues so your analysis of me is just wrong.

But the main point is, no one has ever shown any sound evidence that HG is better than modern glues. But it is one of the most widely repeated bits of luthier BS out there today. What I think is stupid is where people say it is somehow superior to other glues and that people who use it are somehow better, more skilled etc, and that guitars built with it are therefore better. It is kind of elitist and people use it to differentiate their products as better. No evidence, just BS and spin.

I don't care what you use but when you start saying your techniques are superior, you are indirectly commenting about the work of others.

It is telling that Trevor mentioned in his book that most of the guitars that come in for glue failures where classicals glued up with HHG.

So, until you can prove that HG is better is remains pure BS and it is valid for me or anyone else to call it as such.

Dom

[kiwigeo]

This thread is starting to come unglued...everyone gather round for a group hug

[Kim]

Kim, it was Martin who said he nearly had a disaster and burnt his work shop down, not me.

But the point is you won't burn down your house using white or yellow glue. And Martins post is a reminder to everyone of the risks of using heating devices in a workshop full of wood . Dom

And from the amount of words you have written it appears you are the one with the problem with LMI glue.

The amount of words used were relative to the task of pointing out the realities of the situation in the face the of sensationalism seeded by the title of Martin's post and then propagated by you in what appears to be a vendetta against all things hide glue Dom.

The LMI site says it is specifically made for instrument makers, so I doubt very much you can buy it in Bunnings. No need to argue though, I'll write to them and ask if their instrument makers glue is weld-on.

Why rely on an email to LMI to confirm what they have already written on their website? Bunnings is just up the road Dom. Two bits of pine and a few bucks is the surest way to leave no doubt even for you. This may be a difficult concept to come to terms with, but you wouldn't even need to make the experiment all about proving me wrong, you could make it about investigating the possibility that the very same thing that rings your bell well enough to have it shipped from one side of the planet to the other is in fact available to you just a few minutes away for much less money, after all Dom, 'that' was my intent when pointing out the close similarities to you and other forum members.

But I think you are getting a little personal again suggesting I can't use these products, implying it is my lack of skill, that it didn't work for me, that I should not rely on one product as you have claimed.

I had not suggested any of that Dom. My comment was only that I would never limit "myself" to only one type of glue and that 'you' have issue with HHG because it had not work out well for you. I had based the last part of my comment upon your own word of your experience's with HHG i.e. thick glue lines, unreliable bonds. etc. etc. For you to have read all you did into that simple statement only demonstrates how defencive you are about the topic and does not implicate me as provocateur as you suggest. In fact it was you who had assumed that role with your statement that Martin's "Very Lucky" escape was good reason to stick with LMI white.

But the main point is, no one has ever shown any sound evidence that HG is better than modern glues. But it is one of the most widely repeated bits of luthier BS out there today. What I think is stupid is where people say it is somehow superior to other glues and that people who use it are somehow better, more skilled etc, and that guitars built with it are therefore better. It is kind of elitist and people use it to differentiate their products as better. No evidence, just BS and spin.

The only person I have found to be spreading anything suggesting the perception that the use of HHG is the realm of the ubber skilled elite craftsman is yourself Dom. You had posted the same over at the OLF a few weeks ago and left everyone there scratching there heads also...Perhaps it is just your perception? Maybe you are confusing when people express joy at the discovery of the benefits of HHG after many years as a woodworker in terms of revelation, with them somehow suggesting that anyone who does not feel the same has a way to go??..I am not sure why you would do that but then I am not sure how you came to conclusion that I had questioned your skills in my earlier comments either?

I don't care what you use but when you start saying your techniques are superior, you are indirectly commenting about the work of others.

Sorry Dom...I am certain that must have happened somewhere but I have not seen it happen in this thread.

It is telling that Trevor mentioned in his book that most of the guitars that come in for glue failures where classicals glued up with HHG.

Well that's a bit open Dom...were these guitars made by people who lacked experience with using HHG so they made the novice mistake of making the mix too thick so it skinned over before adequate clamping pressure was applied?? What gram strength had these instruments been glued with? Had the wood been properly dry before gluing so that shrinkage would not shear the bond in time? Had some of these instruments perhaps been exposed to extended periods of very high moisture/humidity. Were any of these guitars left in a hot car where moisture in the wood and heat combined to caused bond failure...I will take that any day over a guitar glued with PVA/AR that was in the same car yet stayed together. The re-glue job for the HHG is small fish compared to the creep shifted, rebonded bracings of the PVA/AR guitar...that one will sound dead as cardboard and a likely candidate for the bin.

So, until you can prove that HG is better is remains pure BS and it is valid for me or anyone else to call it as such. Dom

I've already done that for 'myself' Dom, that's why I will continue to use the stuff for most task. So for me HHG works very, very, well and that is all I ever needed to prove, anyone else can simply do the same rather than wait around on a skyhook for the rest of the world to bring them experience. On that I must wonder, with so many other people happily using HHG in areas of ice and snow of considerably colder clime than Canberra if perhaps a little more trial and error would be worth your while to discover what so many people are so happy about. You have said that you find HHG it is inconvenient. That's fair enough, but surely it couldn't take up any more of your time than driving home the anti HHG message does every time you think you've identify an opertunity?

If you wish to debate the matter further I am happy to oblige, but I would ask that you avoid allowing defensiveness to misrepresent my words and motives...."again" nothing personal..just stating the facts as I find them.

Cheers

Kim

[kiwigeo]

My workshop didn't catch fire...but looks like this thread has

[peter.coombe]

My workshop didn't catch fire...but looks like this thread has

Yes it has. I guess glue is something Luthiers will argue about till the cows come home, and there are plenty of cows around where I live. There is no perfect glue. Every one of them has advantages and disadvantages. There are things I like about LMI glue, and things I like about HHG. There are also things I don't like about both of them. It is a personal choice, both work fine, so is no big deal. I choose LMI for most wood to wood joins, but there are around 4-5 different glues used to construct every one of my instruments. And, I don't give a rat's behind if LMI is Weldbond or whatever, since the nearest Bunnings is a 2 hr drive away.

Peter

[Kim]

My workshop didn't catch fire...but looks like this thread has

There is no perfect glue. Every one of them has advantages and disadvantages. There are things I like about LMI glue, and things I like about HHG. There are also things I don't like about both of them. It is a personal choice, both work fine, so is no big deal. Peter

That is my point Peter, I would never limit my options by joining any club or faction and I don't see where others who use HHG are doing that either. No fire from me in all this, but I won't have my position misrepresented to try and fit another's defence of their own perceptions of things and I don't think anyone else here would, or should either.

As for you being 2hrs from Bunnings..well that can be a good and bad thing as already discussed.

Cheers

Kim

[Nick]

Shit! All this time & I've just been using flour and water Happy new year everybody, if you have any marshmallows feel free to toast them over this thread
It all comes down to personal taste, I'd have 'purists' cringing in their paint pots because I don't like Nitro and much rather prefer Urethanes, does it make any difference to my guitars? I hope so.
Glad the stash has made it through the episode 'unsullied' Martin. Another lesson learnt, can't be all bad!