Fretboard gluing

Dominic · Post by **Dominic** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:18 pm

Hey, this is like one of those 'worked for me' sections in the back of the GAL journal.

I have just finished gluing a fret board to a neck blank, in this case a bolt-on for an electric guitar for my nephew but i have used this method on acoustics with bolt-on necks.
I like to glue the fretboard on before shaping the neck and this is important using this method. I have seen pins inserted in fret slots etc and other methods used to stop the fretboard sliding around under clamping pressure. I used to shoot a staple into the neck and cut one leg right down and pull the rest out but my stapler broke one day so i came up with this.
First, clamp your fingerboard onto the neck exactly where you want it.

Then, get those two popsticks I have there, (or similar) and push them one at a time up against the fret board and wick a little CA glue under the outside edge so it does not glue the fretboard on.

Then tap the fretboard back out and you have a perfectly aligned guide to glue your fretboard on with. Add glue and push it up into the wedge created by the sticks and clamp. When dry the popsticks will cut away very easily when you start shaping the neck.
Dom

Kim · Post by **Kim** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:53 pm

Good tip Dominic, thanks for sharing.

Cheers

Kim

BillyT · Post by **BillyT** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:25 pm

Thanks Dom!

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:40 am

Good idea Dom,

Might I suggest you add stops at each end of the fretboad just to make sure theres absolutely no lengthwise movement of same? Id put a piece of waxed scrap wood in the nut slot and glue a paddle pop across the body end of the neck blank.

One good thing about your method is you don't have to worry about cutting holes in the clamping caul to clear pins.

Cheers Martin

sebastiaan56 · Post by **sebastiaan56** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:21 pm

The simple ideas are always the best, Thanks Dom,

Rick Turner · Post by **Rick Turner** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:08 pm

As a person who has rough machine shaped about 3,500 necks, I cannot agree with putting on the fingerboard before carving the neck. Carving always releases internal tensions in the neck blank. If you glue with water based glue, you introduce additional stresses.

The most stable necks I've made are rough carved to within about 1/16" to 1/8" of the final contour and profile, allowing me to make a final correction of the fingerboard gluing surface before I glue the 'board on with epoxy which adds not moisture to the glue line.

I made a good 1,200 necks your way before changing. My neck issues dropped to a fraction of what they'd been before. I'll never go back to doing it the other way.

Paul B · Post by **Paul B** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:45 pm

How about a tutorial Rick?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:48 pm

I certainly don't want to cast any disparaging remarks about your method of building a neck Dominic, but I'm with Rick on this one.

Just working on a couple of necks. I flattened the top of the neck that the fret board gets glued to, had the truss rod channel cut and ready to install. Checked with my straight edge. Then roughed out the neck and did a rough neck set before even thinking of attaching the fret board. I had the first neck sitting in my RH controlled room for about a week before I could get back to it.

Thinking it would be just a simple matter of making up some epoxy and gluing on the fret board. I checked the neck for straightness, and saw that it had moved a measurable amount with the release of tension in all that extra wood being pared away. Had I glued on the fret boar you could have straighted it out by sanding the fret board some more, but I'd prefer to make the neck true, and glue on a fret board that I had made as true as possible.

Getting the neck right has been the most challenging part of building for me, and with each one I'm closer to getting it just right. I think that this one issue has taught me to make up a neck, rough it to shape and just let it rest as long as possible before using it. It would make sense to do a batch of necks ahead of time if you are into building like this. Alternatively you might want to consider getting the neck to this stage before you start on the body. This would give it heaps of time to do it's thing. I will be doing it that way from now on.

Dominic · Post by **Dominic** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:48 pm

Thanks guys. Martin, a stop at the nut end would be good and stop you breaking a popstick away if you push the board into the wedge too hard. But I also felt it was good to have room to rub the glued board around a bit and help spread the glue and that would be hard if all 4 sides had blocks. If you slightly angle the first clamp the right way it will push the fingerboard up into the wedge and against your nut stop and will not be able to slide back.

Rick and Allen, I have thankfully not had any problems with the geometry changing so far. The neck blank is usually around the correct depth and tapper when I glue it up but is over wide, and i am using laminated necks.
I take your point though. But I also think it is a trade-off with ease of building. For many new guitar builders, it is very difficult to get the shape and feel of a neck right without the fingerboard on. Even to within 1/4 ". This is one of the most appealing things for me, getting the neck just right and not having had the benefit of making 1500 necks, the only way to get the feel is to feel it. I have only made 10 necks, 4 on electrics which are longer and potentially more prone to releasing tension and these have a great low action, no string buzz, perfect relief and are still straight.
I will pay particular attention to this in the future but I have not run into any problems yet, 'touch tone wood'.
Cheers
Dom

Rick Turner · Post by **Rick Turner** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:57 pm

If you pin and double stick tape your fingerboard to the neck blank while carving, you can have the best of both worlds.

Learning to carve within about 1/8" or 3mm without a fingerboard in place is a good exercise in self-training to get not only good at this, but fast as well.

Dominic · Post by **Dominic** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:32 pm

Thanks Rick and Allen, I am not disagreeing with your excellent advice. But I am trying to think through this to understand the potential problem for myself.
What is the actual issue. I mean, is a neck likely to get backbow or too much relief, in which case it could be adjusted with the truss rod unless outrageously bad, or do you mean it could twist which would be much harder to fix. If the neck twisted after carving it would presumably be expensive firewood.
With laminated necks, the strips are no more than an inch square and often smaller. So tension in each individual piece would be greatly reduced already and this would be much less than a solid neck blank. And If I turn the pieces to get opposing grain does this not go a long way to solving the problem? Do you generally use laminated necks?
Finally, there are many in the electric guitar building community that say you should glue the fretboard to a block before carving and have given similar reasons to you for doing so. In the end we just get confused by all the conflicting expert advice.
I, and every new builder, benefits far more from understanding problems from first principles than just following great advice.
Cheers
Dom

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:08 pm

I'm in now way an expert. Just wanted to comment on my observations.

I've done 1 piece necks, and laminated ones. These last 2 necks are 3 piece laminated with opposing grain. What I saw was a bit of back bow, and the very slightest bit of twist. I checked this out by rubbing chalk on the upper neck surface and running it over 180 grit paper that I've glued to a flat marble slab that I use to true up surfaces.

Yes, it could be have been corrected with a truss rod adjustment or truing up the fret board once it was glued on, but my thinking is to start with it straight and true, without tension built in.

I've not had a problem shaping the neck this way at all. Your taper is set by your fret board dimensions, so I cut it to within 1 mm of the finished size. The depth is also pretty easy. Measure the depth off a neck that you like and use that if it suits you. Then as Rick suggested, I use a couple of brads and lay the fret board on the neck. I've never felt the need to use double sided tape. I just carve a bit, lay the fret board into position, run my hand up and down the neck to check on my progress, then pull the fret board off so I don't accidentally damage it. Then carve some more.

I may have somewhat of a trained hand from years of panel beating, and getting a mental picture of what I am feeling, but it's really not that difficult to get good at with a little practice. And getting it to withing 3 mm of final dimension before gluing on the fret board is still plenty of leeway. In fact the neck will feel absolutely huge.

Rick Turner · Post by **Rick Turner** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:31 am

Frankly, I don't know what is confusing about understanding that blocks of wood, even laminated ones, have internal stresses that are released when you saw, machine, or carve on them, particularly when you do most of the wood removal from one side. This is old woodworking knowledge that is not unique to lutherie. Cabinet and furniture makers have known this stuff literally for centuries.

The idea that a truss rod is to counteract bad woodworking practice and a neck that is naturally backbowed or excessively forward bowed without string tension is just not right. That's an invitation to a lot of warranty work. With modern double acting double rods, the ideal is for you to have a dead flat and straight neck/fingerboard when the rod is in "neutral". The way you accomplish that is by gluing a perfect fingerboard to a perfect neck with a glue that won't cause the wood to move.

I made over 1,200 Alembic necks the way you're doing it. Titebonded fingerboards to laminated neck blanks made mostly out of maple and purpleheart, then took them to the shaper for rough carving. Then on to hand carving. Had lots of neck issues. Had to do an incredible amount of hand leveling of the fingerboards prior to fretting.

If you want to create more work for yourself, then do it that way, but I'm telling you, if you switch over to doing this the way that most guitar factories do it (small to large...), you'll find yourself doing a lot less compensating for problems you've created for yourself.

A lot of the methods that small shop luthiers adopt are coming from a place of not knowing much about either classic woodworking practice or about how production guitar building shops work to save time and assure high quality. We tend to come out of a self-educated past with a very "craftsman at the bench" mentality, and that often includes repair experience where a refret naturally involves a lot of hand prep of the fingerboard. In guitar making, you've got to lose those hangups and think process and sequence in a way that you eliminate future problems by really thinking about how and why issues come up...like fingerboards needing a lot of hand work. They shouldn't and don't if you put together a straight and stress-free neck.

Rick Turner · Post by **Rick Turner** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:34 am

One other thing...

Ideally, you should be able to fret a fingerboard, then glue it to the neck, and not have to do any fret leveling. That is the holy grail of neck making. Everything you do should be with the idea that that is possible. Perfect components put together perfectly make perfect parts. Put those together perfectly, and you've got the perfect guitar. Not easy to achieve, but that's the way to think if you want your guitars to get better and better. You should never have to go back and fix something that went together wrong. And a neck that isn't straight with no string tension is wrong.

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:22 am

Gotta agree here.

We've got ten semi shaped necks in the shop, all laminated and most of them have shifted a little so will need to be trued up before glueing the fingerboard.

We like to leave the necks as long as possible like this before glueing on the fingerboards.

We've got enough wood for maybe another 15 necks so they're going to get glued up and semi carved as soon as time permits so they can do their shifting thing.

I'd rather be chucking a few of the on the fire than putting them on an instrument that may cause problems down the track.

Chasing fret buzzes is a PITA and very time consuming and it'll be virtually impossible to get a decent setup without truing up the fingerboard if there is any warping.

Since adopting this practise our setups are much easier with very little fret levelling. Using Epoxy rather than Titebond helps heaps a swell.

Bob

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:24 am

I'll add that on my first necks I needed to do a heck of a lot of fret leveling. This last one didn't need any. That's the point that I hope to achieve on all my necks, 'cause I just hate having to level and re-crown frets. It's got to be one of the most tedious jobs I've ever done.

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:50 am

While we're on fret levelling one of the best and simplest tools I've ever used for this is Rick Turners idea.

Get a piece of aluminium angle (or a few actually from 3 to 8 inches long)
and glue some sandpaper to one edge.

Slip it under the strings and you can level your frets while the neck is under string tension.

Cheap, quick and simple and you won't believe how much lower you can get the action without fret buzz.

Bob

Dominic · Post by **Dominic** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:14 am

Yeh, thanks Rick. Frankly, you are not the only person giving advice on internet forums and if you read my post, you will find that it is not the fact that wood is organic and moves around that is confusing, but the conflicting advice given on various internet forums. Others will say that to avoid backbow when glueing fretboards you should glue to a bigger block.
Therefore, i wanted to know what was happening as I have not seen the problem myself and my last neck went together perfectly with no fretwork needed.

Dominic · Post by **Dominic** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:06 pm

BTW, Bill Cumpiano carves the neck after the fingerboard is glued on in his book.

Rick Turner · Post by **Rick Turner** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:47 pm

I don't find a need to agree with Bill Cumpiano. If Bill wants to waste his time building that way, he's free to do so. You'll note, however, that he has changed how he puts his necks on because that way he showed in his book turned out to be a major pain in the ass.

Getting a publishing contract is no guarantee that all is done the best way. I've read some really outlandish stuff in "build a guitar" books...a lot of stuff that is just wrong. Check out the epoxy butt joint for the necks in DR Young's book; that's really fun when the guitar needs a neck reset. Check out practically everything in the Arthur Overholzer book...weird stuff.

Most of the luthiers who post on the Internet have little or no production guitar making experience, and their opinions are based on a relatively minor number of guitars built and out the door. I dare say Stradivarius made more violins in his lifetime than all but a few luthiers I see on forums have made in guitar numbers. Also most young guitar makers have very little repair experience, and so they do not know what goes wrong with guitars nor how to fix them nor how to design guitars that don't have "traditional" problems. Hence, they build guitars that do need more repair and tweaking than should be necessary. And they don't build enough to really be able to step back and analyze those little things that aren't right. Hell, it took me 1,250 Alembic necks to just step away and ask myself if there might not be a better way, and there was and is.

You are perfectly welcome to do this any way you like, but when you've leveled the fiftieth backbow out of a fingerboard, just remember that you once read of another way to do this. I've seen too many guys just say, "Well, I'll just level the fingerboard after I get the neck on." And then they sand and sand and blow through fingerboard inlays, make the fingerboard obviously thinner in the middle or one end or whatever, have to recut fret slots, have to do a refret, have to grind the pissing Willie out of the fret tops...all in an effort to correct something wrong that they built into the neck in the first place.

Your mileage may vary...

Hesh1956 · Post by **Hesh1956** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:01 am

On one of the first necks that I ever made, back when I made necks, I made the mistake of carving one side to shape and quitting for a couple of days. I also did not have decent RH control then either.

When I came back the neck had twisted so much that I could not use it. I had relived wood stresses asymmetrically and this caused the neck to twist. After that what ever I did to one side I immediately did it to the other side AND I put RH control in place.

Necks move as you remove material and the stresses change so I would not glue a fret board in place until the neck was complete, stable, and true.

Rick Turner · Post by **Rick Turner** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:03 am

A lot of builders "get away" with one thing or another for quite a while. Or they just get used to compensating for wood movement with a secondary or tertiary operation and think "that's how you do it." I find it useful to constantly step back and ask myself if there's a better way to do every operation that my employees and I do in the making of guitars. If you are making really good parts, then guitars should go together like model airplane kits with everything simply fitting into place. You shouldn't have to compensate for any changes brought about by the build process. Nothing should move after it's been final machined or glued.

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:29 am

Rick,
Could you tell us how you go about clamping the fingerboard to a semi carved round neck , and what method you use to stop the fingerboard moving around until the epoxy grabs.

Rick Turner · Post by **Rick Turner** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:15 am

One trick to get grab is to shoot in two staples with the staple gun held away from the face of the neck by about 1/16". Then cut off the crown of the staples, and you're left with a couple of short sharp points. Then use the epoxy, and clamp.

I'm in the middle of scrambling to get out of here on Tuesday to fly to Tasmania. When I get back, I'll photograph our procedure. It's pretty low tech, actually, but I did make a couple of fixtures for clamping fingerboards to necks.

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:36 pm

Re epoxying fretboards I have one question. How hard is it to undo an epoxy joint? Im thinking down the track when it comes time to lift off a fretboard (low chance I know if guitar is built properly) or lift the upper fretboard from top in the case of a neck reset (slightly higher chance).

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