Indonesian grown Brazilian Rosewood

[Bob Connor]

I bought a uke set of that Brazilian Rosewood grown in Indonesia from Ebay, just to see what it was like.

It arrived pronto, only a few days from Indonesia beautifully packaged.

Only problem is it's Indian Rosewood.

I hate the smell of Indian, I reckon it smells like dog terds, so the snoz picked up on it straight away.

Look like Indian, smell like Indian, taste like Indian.

What surprises me is the number of people who have bought from this guy and have left positive feedback stating how nice their Brazilian rosewood is.

Just thought I'd let you all know in case you considered buying some.

This Indian isn't too bad and I'll certainly use it for something down the track.

Bob

[Hesh1956]

Bob buddy you certainly are a good sport!

[Arnt]

This isn't the wood that is advertised as "Dalbergia Nigra, a kind of Brazilian Rosewood", by any chance? I've seen it on eBay too, and it didn't look too 'Brazillian' to me either, more like flat sawn IRW.

And what's with the weird template shape? Seen it before...

Like you, I was puzzled too see the comments from his customers

One guy said "Nice wood - I need to find a way to keep it from warping and cupping like last" though. I can imagine!

[Dave White]

Bob,

Maybe it's being sold by a girl named Rose with a Brazilian who lives in Indonesia

Indonesian Indian Rosewood - there's a mouthfull!

[James Mc]

Hey Bob… good to know, I’ve been wondering if they were selling the real deal, I suspected that it was IRW, there’s stacks of it growing there. Also nice to know that I’m not alone in hating the smell of Indian rosewood, don’t know how anyone can stand working with it.

Just as a point of interest it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that you could get real BZ and some other good guitar timbers from Indonesia. I spent some time both there and in Borneo helping set up sustainable forestry programs to help provide income for poor villages. A lot of time was spent identifying high value timber trees that had been planted on farms etc that could be available for harvest. We were amazed by the number of different species that were found that weren’t native to Indonesia but of good enough size and numbers to make them worth milling. Some of the species of interest to luthiers that were found and confirmed by a museum botanist were.

Papua New Guinea Rosewood or Narra, which is native to the region but considerable amounts have been planted on farms.

East Indian Rosewood, which is known in many countries in the region as Indonesian Rosewood. There’s a lots of it growing there and they must have been planting it for a long time because a lot of the trees are huge.

Bolivian Rosewood or Pau Ferro, this was planted in some of the older teak plantations and was just getting large enough to mill (15 years ago).

Macassar Ebony, good amounts of this had been planted between rice fields and around oil palm plantations.

Brazilian Rosewood they call it Jacaranda but it was confirmed as Dalbergia nigra. There’s not a lot, but a few small plantings were identified up north in the Banda Aceh region. These trees weren’t included in the final list put together of available resource because they were very highly valued by the locals. They value them because they like it for smoking fish, sea cucumber and making tools (they never chop them down, just cut of a branch when they need it). I gave my mum a hand carved hair comb made from it, cost 50 cents.

P.S. I was unlucky enough to try BZ smoked sea cucumber, tastes like what Indian Rosewood smells like... came right back up.

[Bob Connor]

Arnt - yes, that's the guy. Goes under the name of tksan0407 or guitar_part, but from the parcel he says his name is Henry Santoso.

Also interesting in the feedback was a buyer who goes under the name of Tippie53. I might get in touch with John and see what he thought.

Dave .

Not quite sure what to do about this. If I leave negative feedback he is liable to do the same to me and I don't want to affect my Ebay rating.

I'm thinking a PM with a please explain might be the way to go but would probably achieve nothing.

Any thoughts?

Bob

[James Mc]

You could give him neutral feedback and mention that it is indian RW in the comment.

Or positive feedback and say nice indian rosewood, wish it was BRW

or nice wood but smells like dog shit not roses

[Arnt]

About the feedback thing; tough one! I guess it depends on how important is it to you to set the record straight with this guy. As you said, it looked nothing like BRW, so you probably wasn't too surprised when it also smelled nothing like it, and it was in fact IRW. If is sounds too good to be true... etc. Selling a product under a false name is equally unethical regardless of the amount of money involved, but on the plus side you got some decent wood (although probably overpriced for what it is).

I believe most half educated potential buyers of BRW for guitars will suspect something fishy when they see the pictures, not to mention the price of the wood compared to the current value of the real thing. This seller exists only because there are enough people who think: "It probably isn't for real, but what if...?"

I'm not going to encourage you to go on a crusade over this, it probably isn't that important to you, and you will most likely achieve nothing, like you say. And I don't know how important your feedback rating is to you or how likely it is that this guy will go after you if you give him a negative feedback, but I sure wish more people would 'do the right thing', regardless. Without honest comments the whole feedback system is worthless (pretty much what it is now, thanks to this dilemma).

[kiwigeo]

Wasn't this subject raised over on OLF last year. I recall being involved in the conversation.

If you dont want to upset the guy by giving him a negative rating then publcizing the facts here is the the next best thing...word seems to get around fairly fast in the world of luthiery.

[kiwigeo]

Oh yeah..nearly forgot. I love the smell of IRW.

(I also eat raw fish and sushi on a regular basis).

[BillyT]

Not quite sure what to do about this. If I leave negative feedback he is liable to do the same to me and I don't want to affect my Ebay rating.

I'm thinking a PM with a please explain might be the way to go but would probably achieve nothing.

Any thoughts?

Sounds like you need to buy on one account name, while selling on another!

[Dave Anderson]

Sorry to hear about this scam Bob. I wish we
could figure out a way to shut this guy down!!

[ZOOTMAN]

Out of curiosity I also bought a set of this wood. It certainly isn't BRW but I'm not convinced that it's Indian RW either. I talked to John Hall "tippie" and he agreed. Said I should have called him first. One more note. When I made PayPal payment I noticed that the name also contained Eddie from Pro Sono
At least I think that's the name. They sell lot's of plantation grown EIR.

[Arnt]

When I made PayPal payment I noticed that the name also contained Eddie from Pro Sono
At least I think that's the name. They sell lot's of plantation grown EIR.

That would explain the funny looking template shape I was referring to in the previous post, it looks a lot like the one on the EIR sets I have from Eddie.

So you don't think it's EIR, then what do you think it is?

[ZOOTMAN]

Arnt it is a Rosewood but when I compare the set I bought with the EIR sets I have they are not the same. Right now I'm just calling it Indonesian RW

[Kim]

I've dealt with Eddy, his company is actually "Sono_Prima and is run out of Indo.

http://www.globalwood.org/company/mgode ... p?id=14477

I think Eddy actually operates the ebay thing and web sales from the USA, North Carolina from memory. He even does NAMM from time to time and has received some well deserved feedback for his sets and prices.

Sure his EIR is probably coffee bean plantation windrow stuff. Lots of nutrients, abundance water and sunlight mean it grows fast with wider grain than trees grown in the wild. The colour can also be a little more washed out with some sets being light plum and brown at times rather than the classical EIR purple/black and chocolate.

At the end of the day though, most of Eddy's wood is perdy damn good. It is normally well quartered (except maybe for that ridiculuos "Crazy Wild Grain EIR" stuff, (AKA Flat Sawn EIR) most of which I reckon was coming from Sono_Prima, that became soooo popular with vendors a few years back because they could double their profit on what would normally be rejected) and the colour, even the lighter stuff, looks fine under a finish. So I don't have a problem with Eddy's standard EIR, at least it is not contributing to deforestation. In fact, here is some of his latest offerings, http://www.flickr.com/photos/22082234@N05/ if you pick through, some sets are pretty good, and the price is still OK considering what has happen to EIR prices over the last few years. (You do however need to watch him on the shipping )

Anyhow, as for this Indo BRW, maybe this is indeed what happens when BRW is accelerated in growth over just 25 to 30 years in the ideal conditions of a windrow tree in a coffee bean plantations? Maybe this 'is' just a phenotype of normal BRW after all?

I do know that I done a letter of intro up for Eddy a couple of years back so he could get his visa and enter AU with some sets of wood as "samples" whilst visiting his sister in Melbourne. As a "thankyou", Eddy offered to bring me in a dred size set of this Indo BRW, that "normally sell for $500USD" for just a couple of hundred AU. He sent me some images and I told him I was not interested. The set was very washed out in colour and was mainly flat sawn, it had as much appeal as his silly Crazy Grained EIR that he also tried to palm off on me. He ended up just bringing some standard EIR for me, no discount I just saved on shipping from the USA.

A week or so later, I seen a set of Indo BRW and about 10 sets of Silly EIR on ebay AU going for a similar price to what Edd was offering me to say thanks for faxing the intro letter to the trade commission in Indo...funny that The end of the day, Edd is a business man. Some of his wood is quite reasonable but their is plenty of tricks for new players and I recon that Eddy Yohannes knows them all. That is why if your starting out, you should deal with trusted suppliers like those we have approved here at the ANZLF

Cheers

Kim

[James Mc]

if you have a look at the stuff they have listed on ebay at the moment, most of it looks like IRW but the last set is very strange and not like any IRW I've ever seen.

[kiwigeo]

Kim's advice on using trusted suppliers is sound, especially for those starting out in the luthiery game.

BTW I just received 35 3A grade Englemman top sets from Graham Heine and the stuff is top notch. No pics available at the moment sorry.

[sebastiaan56]

Martin,

Is this your super mate?

[Colonial Tonewoods]

Kim and I talked at length about the "kind of Brazilian rosewood" we're seeing on Ebay. I contacted John Hall from Blues Creek and he was kind enough to send me a sample of this wood. I have a close friend who's a plant geneticist at the University of South Carolina and I'm sending him the sample for analysis. I will let you know the results as soon as I hear from him.

[Kim]

Kim and I talked at length about the "kind of Brazilian rosewood" we're seeing on Ebay. I contacted John Hall from Blues Creek and he was kind enough to send me a sample of this wood. I have a close friend who's a plant geneticist at the University of South Carolina and I'm sending him the sample for analysis. I will let you know the results as soon as I hear from him.

Bingo

Thanks Steve, looking forward to some clarity...I wonder

Cheers

Kim

[James Mc]

After many months I’ve heard back from a mate doing some DNA work on timbers, I sent him a sample of the ‘Jacaranda Rosewood’ that guy on ebay was selling. It didn’t look or feel like Indian rosewood to me, smell wasn’t right and had a finer grain but it also didn’t have the BZ smell. He said that they don’t have enough info on all the rosewoods to be totally confident in the results but he is 100% sure that it is a Dalbergia species and 95% sure it isn’t EIR. His best match was from proven samples was Dalbergia Bariensis and he rates his confidence in this being right at 80%.

That said I’ve seen a few sets from this ebay guy and I’m sure one was EIR and I’m not convinced that the other two were or that they were the same species (one was very BZ like including the smell the other was the one I thought to grab a sample of). Maybe he should rename it pot luck rosewood.

Cheers
James

[Bob Connor]

Interesting.

Bariensis is a drop in replacement for Honduran Rosewood both in looks and tap tone.



I wouldn't mind getting on to a stash of that.

LMI sell it for around $250US.

[James Mc]

I was thinking the same thing, only problem would be getting the same timber species from this guy twice and getting well cut timber. I just had a look at the stuff he is currently selling two species EIR and Jacaranda... a kind of Brazilian rosewood (a lot of the Jacaranda looks slab cut).