Bulls Eye Shellac

[pavliku]

Hi all

I was in the local art supply shop today and found a pre-mixed shellac - Bulls Eye Shellac- The brand on the can said it was by Zinsser, but when I went to there website www.zinsser.com, it came up as another site www.rustoleum.com.

Anyway, has any had any experience with this product? I read the specs on the site and it seemed like it might be ok - I was hoping to spray it on as I aquired a spay unit recently. This product seemed like it might be a good option as it is not to expensive and is a regularly stocked item in the store I visited.

I really have no experience with finishes so would greatly appreciate any imput.

Thanks, Paul.

[Kim]

Gday Paul,

I have not use Zinsser 's Bullseye Shellac but it has had a good wrap from many instrument makers, some based in Australia but most from the USA which is where the company is based. Pre-mixed shellac is mainly used as a sealer so be sure you get the dewaxed variety to avoid possible adhesion problems as Zinsser do make both regular (which I think they call it traditional) and dewaxed, which I think they call sealer.

As for spaying, you will probably find that any shellac is better wiped or brushed on because it is so thin. I have found that even if you spray shellac very lightly to avoid runs, it still builds unevenly as if surface tension pulls the finish into peaks as it gasses off....well that has been my experience anyhow.

EDIT: I just looked at the website and the Zinsser product that those in the USA have mentioned in the past is their Seal Coat "Universal sanding Sealer"...As a rule I hate sanding sealers because they are full of solids, often silica, the interfere with the clarity of the clear coat and they can also cause adhesion problems... but this Zinsser product is different, it is 100% dewaxed shellac and denatured alcohol. Therefore it is perfect for use as a sealer on instruments

This is the stuff..http://www.rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp ... &sid=00850

I would not use the shellac product you found in the arts supply, it is a protective 'top' coat and is not dewaxed shellac.

Cheers

Kim

[ozziebluesman]

G'day Kim,

I like applying a French Polish to my hand built guitars. The past few I have used platina dewaxed shellac from Stew Mac and olive oil in the process. As my finish is shellac only and not just a sealer is it ok to use the dewaxed or would I get a better finish using the waxed shellac? I notice the waxed shellac flakes are only available in darker shades and I really want to achieve a finish that will enhance the natural colour of the wood and not darken the finish up too much. Thanks mat!

Cheers

Alan

[Kim]

Alan,

I have little experience with french polish other than what I have read on these forums. I would imagine through that in relation to adhesion it would not matter so much if you used either standard flakes or dewaxed for FP as the nature of the product is that it all becomes 1 single coat in the end no matter how many you apply. However I have been told by one who does have experience that regular amber flakes are best to use if you are learning the FP process because they "body up better", the trade off is the yellow tone which I personalty don't like that much. If you are after less colour influence, then I believe that most 'blonde' varieties of shellac are dewaxed as part of the refinement process that makes them that way..but I could be wrong on that. My own use of shellac now is limited to application as a sealer for which it is brilliant. For that purpose I will only use blonde or super blonde, the last tub of feast and watsons regular shellac flakes I bought got used up resealing my bench tops...its really good for that.

Cheers

Kim

[graham mcdonald]

Spraying premixed French Polish can be done, but it can be tricky. What I have found is that it needs the absolute minimum air pressure that will get it out of the gun with the needle wound out a fair way. Too much pressure and/or not enough liquid means that it dries before it hits the surface you are spraying and you end up with dark gritty bits which don't seem to want to re-dissolve. I have used this with several of the commonly available French Polish mixtures available from hardware/ paint stores and it can be done. It just requires the right adjustment of the gun (which is a $30 cheapy). Wash the gun out well with metho when you have finished too. This doesn't seem to work on the Hard Shellac, as it seems to want to craze after being sprayed.

cheers

graham

[ozziebluesman]

Thanks Kim. My last French Polished guitar just finished received lots of time but when I scratched off the bridge area for gluing I noticed that it is an extremely thin finish. Looks good but!! Maybe Martin (kiwigeo) will have a comment here at sometime.

Cheers

Alan

[peter.coombe]

My last French Polished guitar just finished received lots of time but when I scratched off the bridge area for gluing I noticed that it is an extremely thin finish.

Why does that surprise you? The french polishing technique does produce a very thin finish, that is the nature of the beast. I have been using LMI's dewaxed shellac for french polishing and as a base coat for many years now. I did start off with the regular hardware orange stuff, and that works fine for french polishing also. But I don't like the colour, it is too yellow for my taste, the stuff from LMI has a nice amber colour. The dewaxed blonde shellac from Bunnies also works well, I used that for a while. The wax does not seem to make a great deal of difference with french polishing, but it can affect the adhesion of other finishing products if you use shellac as a base coat. Some of my old mandolins with the orange shellac finish have come back 15 or 16 years later for fret work and the finish is still fine. A french polished finish is one of the most beautiful finishes there is, it does not require any special equipment, and is non toxic (just don't breathe the metho fumes if you use metho). The main drawback to shellac based finishes is they are not very resistant to sweat which is why I now use an oil varnish under a french polish. Don't know about Hard Shellac. Note that french polish is a technique, not a finishing material. Unfortunately some manufacturers call their shellac solutions french polish, when it is is reality just shellac.

Peter

[Lillian]

I use it. I use it as a wipe on protective sealer. Its my default shellac.
I've never sprayed it, so I'm no help in that regard.

[Kim]

I use it. I use it as a wipe on protective sealer. Its my default shellac.
I've never sprayed it, so I'm no help in that regard.

Could you clarify exactly what "it" is Lill that you are using as a sealer...

Cheers

Kim

[pavliku]

Thanks for your thoughts guys.

I'm really not too fussed if I can't spray on this product - I'm happy to brush it on. In reallity its probably much less hassel as I haven't yet any real experience with a spray gun.

I was thinking to use this product http://www.rustoleum.comCBGProduct.asp?pid=245
Would this be suitable as a complete finish?

I can't find any reference as to weather it is dewaxed or not, but I do intend to use the clear.

Thanks,
Paul.

[Kim]

Paul, your link does not work however the product# 245 in the URL you provided leads to Zinssers standard bullseye shellac that we discussed earlier so I am assuming you are still asking about the same product you had refereed to in your OP.

This product should be fine for a 'one product' finish and as a beginner you are likely to get far better results if you follow the basic process of french polishing as per the Milburn Bros tutorial: http://www.milburnguitars.com/fpintro.html. The Zinsser product details sheet has a dilution list to obtain the required "cuts" of shellac for the various stages of the FP process.

From what I can see the Zinsser "shellac" product is just normal, run of the mill, Indian shellac devolved in alcohol with some additive to slow down the polymerization process to 'extended' the shelf life to a minimum of 36 months from date of manufacture if stored from exposure to temperatures exceeding 95 degree Fahrenheit for extended periods... So if it is just standard Indian shellac, (lowest level of refinement) it will most likely bring with it a yellow hue to the wood, the desirability of which should be considered before you commit to the product.

As stated, I would not use that particular product as a 'sealer' or under any other finish. I say this because if it was "de-waxed" shellac, they would promote that on the label as they do with their sealer and if it was de-waxed they would not be warning people that is not recommended for use under urethane and advising people who intend to use urethane to use their de-waxed sealer. In other words, their standard "Shellac" product does have wax in it and therefore would likely prevent urethane...or most other finishes for that matter, from adhering as well as they should.

Sorry if it seems like I am bashing the importance of waxed v de-waxed in relation to your question about a single product finish, but this topic is likely to be re-visited be who knows how many people over time via the search function should they enter any of the words in the topic...for this reason it is very important that people know of the pitfalls because they really can lead to complete disaster for some poor bastard who did not realise there is THAT much difference from one shellac to the next.

Cheers

Kim

[jeffhigh]

The "Seal Coat" Zinser product that is so popular in the USA does not appear to be distributed here, only the regular Bullseye which as Kim points out, is not claimed to be dewaxed.

[tim mullin]

I've not been posting much here lately, but I'm a little distressed by some of the responses you've been getting here, from people who I'm sure mean well, but are just blowing smoke, providing inaccurate information.

Products labelled "Bulls Eye Shellac Traditional Finish and Sealer" are readily available in New Zealand; in fact, probably the only brand of shellac you'll find in your local kiwi Bunnings or Mitre 10 (can't say about Oz). I have spray and non-spray versions sitting in front of me.

The spray version, product number 00408, is 100% wax free -- says so on the label and is safe under polyurethane and other finishes. Pretty much the only shellac I use -- I don't do French polish, but use it as a barrier under lacquer, protection against dirt and staining, and sealing.

The non-spray products in regular cans (in various colours and sizes) are NOT dewaxed and not suitable under some finishes (label makes no dewaxed claim and specifes not recommended for use under polyurethane).

I hope that helps sort some of the confusion.

Tim

[tim mullin]

Addendum: zinsser dewaxed product number 00408 is, in fact, made in non-spray formats, but I don't think you'll find them in NZ. The clear zinsser product sold here in regular cans is identified as 00308 and is NOT dewaxed. The labelling is otherwise almost identical. All of them are imported from the US.

I would have edited my previous post, but the forum administrators don't think think that's such a hot idea.

[jeffhigh]

Well meaning , smoke blowing, but in fact accurate

[Kim]

I've not been posting much here lately, but I'm a little distressed by some of the responses you've been getting here, from people who I'm sure mean well, but are just blowing smoke, providing inaccurate information.

The spray version, product number 00408, is 100% wax free----- says so on the label and is safe under polyurethane and other finishes.

I hope that helps sort some of the confusion.

Tim

Addendum: zinsser dewaxed product number 00408 is, in fact, made in non-spray formats, but I don't think you'll find them in NZ. The clear zinsser product sold here in regular cans is identified as 00308 and is NOT dewaxed. The labelling is otherwise almost identical. All of them are imported from the US.

Yes thanks Tim, its now clear as mud Maybe you should light urself up another malbro while you read the TDS sheet for 00408...its the bottom one of the three..

http://www.rustoleum.com/CBGResourceCen ... sdsprc=245

The points that have been made in this thread remain quite valid regardless of what is on the label or in the TDS. It appears to me the reason you "don't post much here lately" is quite simply because you seldom see an opportunity to discredit those that do. The danger there is that when you think you've finally identified one, the excitement of the occasion appears to make you over state its relevance..but maybe that's just my take on it.

Cheers

Kim

[pavliku]

Kim I'm quite happy for you bash as much as you want. I really want to know fully the ins and outs before commiting my money and time.

So let me ask then, in the oppinion of the members, what would be the best oppition for the finishing of my first guitar? I had planned to seal the IRW with shellac ( I had baught a bag of shellac from Mitre 10 "supreme Shellac" but nowhere on the pack does it say de-waxed so I guess I'll put it aside ( I was origionally thinking to use nitro))then pore fill then apply the top coat - am I even close to a correct method?

Thanks,

Paul.

[Lillian]

I use it. I use it as a wipe on protective sealer. Its my default shellac.
I've never sprayed it, so I'm no help in that regard.

Could you clarify exactly what "it" is Lill that you are using as a sealer...

Cheers

Kim

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/seal ... allon.aspx


Of course I have no idea how this compares to what you are able to find in your neighborhoods.

[Kim]

Paul,

The uncertainty of which way to go in relation to finish is something that every builder faces. If there is one thing that shone through from my own trial and error approach, not just with guitars and not just with finish, it is that there are many ways to success. The secret however is perseverance. If you are reading on a forum how one person is lording a particular product, while yet another is panning it, chances are that the one who has been successful has spent the 'time and effort' required to understand the product, and the method by which it should be applied....On the other hand, chances are that the one who is panning the product has simply not invested enough of themselves to 'earn' success, and often times you will see other posts on forums where that same person has tried 'this' and IT did not work, or they tried 'that' but THAT did not work either and on it goes, no instant success, so it must be the product, and there are plenty of them too, and they all get together like gulls on a chip and rubbish the product with comments like "Hey, your right, that same thing happened to me too dude on my first guitar and I will never use it again"..But what happened to the bloke who is having success? Such a bad product, so much negative feedback, but how come 'he' still uses it and gets great results?? Must be lucky whatdaya recon, kissed on the dick by a fairy when he was born

I reckon it, that is the compulsion to jump from one product to the next looking for the evasive silver bullet, has a lot to do with how we of the west have come to expect that 'everything' should work straight out of the box and be fool proof, with an instructional DVD, an intuitive GUI, 36 month warranty, and a reeeeally, reeeeeealy attractive packet...Where we hit an impasse with that expectation, is that this craft 'demands' that you give of 'yourself'. It demands that 'you' practice and learn the required skill sets for success, many of which are from a time that clearly understood that good things don't come so easy with perhaps the only exception to that rule being the classic, flat, unfilled, oil finish. So the bottom line really 'is', that perseverance is the key...read, understand, decide, buy, try, fail, read more, repair, try again, take notes, get better, repair less, read more, practice, practice, practice, and perfect...THAT is the only way to success no matter what product you choose...sorry Paul but its the brutal truth.

For now, if you really want to know what I think about your questions in this topic, I think they show you need to read more and get firm on your direction before you put anything on your guitar. Please don't get me wrong, I support people asking questions and the notion that there is no such thing as a stupid one except the one you don't ask. But the truth is that you need to be set in your own mind exactly what you want to do before anyone can really help you, and the only way you can do that, is to read and understand for yourself the pros and cons of each product and process, because that is the only way that 'you' will know what 'you' will be prepared to commit the time and effort to that it takes to get the results your after. I say you should do this now because I feel that if someone grabs your hand and points you in a certain direction today, it will be far to easy for you to blame 'their' bad advice tomorrow than admit your own failings and begin to learn from them, and an 'easy out' like that, is not conducive to perseverance...its a vicious bloody circle mate..

OK, with that understanding I urge you to look at Allen's tutorials in the tutorial section of this forum. When it comes to nitro he is a true guru and his input has helped a lot of people to overcome the worst of the learning curve including myself. Start with this one and work your way right through the tutorials section for a few more from Allen, he's a pro spray painter/auto finisher and his tips are pure gold: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=343

Cheers

Kim

[Kim]

Of course I have no idea how this compares to what you are able to find in your neighborhoods.

That's the stuff we want but can't get here Lill. But never mind, I like to mix my own anyhow and the process is simple enough.

Cheers

Kim

[kiwigeo]

Kim I'm quite happy for you bash as much as you want. I really want to know fully the ins and outs before commiting my money and time.

So let me ask then, in the oppinion of the members, what would be the best oppition for the finishing of my first guitar? I had planned to seal the IRW with shellac ( I had baught a bag of shellac from Mitre 10 "supreme Shellac" but nowhere on the pack does it say de-waxed so I guess I'll put it aside ( I was origionally thinking to use nitro))then pore fill then apply the top coat - am I even close to a correct method?

Thanks,

Paul.

That Mitre 10 shellac is probably fairly dark coloured flakes. It might be ok on IRW but on light coloured top woods it may darken down the top somewhat. Once you mix it up try it on some scrap top wood and see how it changes the cokour of same. I generally use blonde or superblonde flakes. I normally source the flakes from a local furniture restoration shop or use LMI's shellac flakes.

[Allen]

There are lots of ways of getting a great finish. The thing that seems to stymie many builders, and especially new ones is the amount of time it takes to get there. They seem to think that once the box is closed they are just a day or two away from getting the strings on and down to the pub to play their first set.

Lot's of patience and time is what will get you there. I do this a lot, and for me to get a perfectly smooth high gloss lacquer finish that is incredibly thin takes a long time. With no experience you will take a heck of a lot more. I don't use shellac as a sealer coat under my finish as you seem to be planning on, but others may quite successfully. I stick to what I know works for me.

Have a look through the tutorial section and some of my processes should be more evident.

[pavliku]

I was really wanting to know about products not process. Good tutorials are readily avaliable - thank you Allen for yours, I had read it and found it very informative.

If there are any N.Z members reading please enlighten me as to what localy availiable products you may be using. I do know of the Mirotone products, but as the smallest quantity sold is 4 litres I was hoping to find a proven product in a smaller quantity.

Is the arcrylic lacqeur sold at the local paint store suitable for guitars.?

Paul

[Puff]

Paul - I would go with a wipe on varnish and, as you say, there are plenty of tutes out there, You can modify/tweek the custom stuff (Wattyl, Cabots etc) to your heart's desire - advice aplenty on that too.

[simso]

I use shellac all the time in my violin repairs, whilst you can spray it, I recommend just simply rubbing it on gently, the spirit base mix will lift any earlier coats if you rub too hard, the key is soft cloth gentle wipes, unless your using it for a fp finish.

As far as poly coats afterwards, if its got wax in the base coat, dont do it, if it doesnt have wax then go for it. If it doesnt say and its golden shellac flakes, odds are its got wax in it