Silly Question

[needsmorecowbel]

Any one got any ideas on getting a job within the woodworking industry without a cert in joinery, carpentry etc etc? The businesses i have talked to have just been plain rude

Stu

[woodrat]

...self employed luthier...?

[Puff]

Making yourself known in boatyards might lead to contacts/interest. At least some of them still use real wood and real joinery. Good luck.

[needsmorecowbel]

That's what i am aiming for eventually...but skills definitely need a boost. Even considering trying to find someone locally who needs a hand or a spotter from time to time in his/ her workshop. Like a violin maker or whatnot...

[Nick]

Unless you are prepared to start an apprenticeship then getting into any trade related industry without certification only leads down one path....labourer, sweeping the floors, making the tea for the boys,cutting 5000 bits of wood all to the same length, operating a production CNC machine, you get the picture. Trades industries are so competitive now that the days of Joe blow walking in off the street & picking things up as they go are long gone & too expensive a risk for employers. Sorry I couldn't be more positive but unless somebody is willing to start at the bottom(as in apprenticeship or come in with some trade school experience) I don't think I'd be employing anybody either. Maybe your expectations are a little high for any employers hence their seemingly rude responses? Hopefully that didn't sound rude either? Just the realities of modern trade business I'm afraid

[needsmorecowbel]

Nah not at all my expectations aren't high i was just looking around to see what is the go in the industry. One guy was really helpful and said they basically did nothing in the way of joining by 'hand' anymore and were mainly using high end CNC routers and as few people as possible to maximise profit. The other guy was just very very rude with his sarcastic tone and was pissed off because i wanted to send an email to minimize the risk of wasting his time and he refused and was just being a general douche. You are not being rude Nick there are always going to be setbacks/ refusals but this guy was just being intolerably sarcastic and rude.

[needsmorecowbel]

My only high expectation would be that if you are a business that you show some degree of professionalism when dealing with people

[Nick]

My only high expectation would be that if you are a business that you show some degree of professionalism when dealing with people

Fair point Stu & one many businesses could do to heed, sometimes they forget that the customer is the one doing them the favour by providing an income rather than the other way around!
Yeah I can see the case of the CNC shop becoming the norm, I'm in engineering & most workshops now all use CNC, no breaks & they don't stop to go to the dunny or timeout for a smoke & one person can operate/ look after several machines. Unfortunately we get less tradesmen and more operators as an end result & a reluctance to carry out one off work unless you want to pay a shitload for it .

[needsmorecowbel]

Well CNC will get replaced by lasers haha

[woodrat]

...sorry Stu I didn't mean to be flippant in my earlier post but I faced the same dilemma years back and decided to go the private tuition road that really fastracked my skills. I started with furniture first but guitars are much more fun. I just decided to become the self empolyed luthier/pauper because it was what I wanted to do. I didn't want to die wondering.

[Puff]

Turn the power off and they're all @#$%^&*( ed. I enjoyed that I will do it again !@#$%^&*()_+ OOOoops= back to the dog box.

[needsmorecowbel]

No need for apologies woodrat was a great suggestion...fired off a few emails because of it.

I went down the whole creative arts path recently...and that led to people coming up to Me at exhibitions and being like: "hey that's really nice. I'd buy it...if I had money"

This kind of thing caused some strange reaction on my head...

[Nick]

I went down the whole creative arts path recently...and that led to people coming up to Me at exhibitions and being like: "hey that's really nice. I'd buy it...if I had money"

You must be a sucker for punishment Stu! You'll get the same reaction from making guitars too! At least I do, really keen then comes the question "How much do you sell them for?" then within 3 seconds they've lost interest.

[Kim]

I do not see much scope to learn woodworking skills in any business these days even if one does have some sort of formal training certificate. To put someone on a machine who is not qualified is just asking to loose your business because insurance would not cover you when something goes wrong. As Nick suggests, CNC is doing all the lackey work these days but even they don't sweep up after themselves so there is your job description right there.

Yes there are old school artisans catering for the one off market in high end joinery shops, and some can do quite well if they have their chops and a BA, but they really are few and far between these days and generally keep it in the family e.g. H.E. Cleverbastard & Sons... The one area I can think of these days where you 'may' find some leads or gain experience that 'may' open doors that 'may' help you get you into Mr Cleverbastard's workshop, is as a side kick to a fixing carpenter.

That work is on-site. You hang doors, installing benches, fit balustrade, pergolas, verandahs with freaze work and rok brackets etc and maybe a bit stair work. Those guys can't float with just that so you would find yourself doing a bit of roofing and digging ditches for footings etc, even some concreting. All of that stuff is good work but it will do nothing to develop your fine woodworking skills. However it will place you on the inside of the industry and if you are keen on site, and let your goals be know to the right people, word of mouth 'may' help you to be where you are wanting to be now.....whether or not its where you want to be then will be up to you.

Cheers

Kim

[Allen]

I was offered a job with a cabinet company a few years ago, but when they saw some of my work they said "S#!t, all we build is white boxes with doors on em. You'll go nuts doing that".

[needsmorecowbel]

Sorry guys to clarify i wasn't looking for a position working with power tools was looking for a place that mainly used chisels/ planes etc etc. There is one that apparently do school honour boards and other fine carpentry that a contact is putting me onto shortly

[needsmorecowbel]

Good point Kim. It is usually who you know and who can vouch for you.

[Ormsby Guitars]

Sorry guys to clarify i wasn't looking for a position working with power tools was looking for a place that mainly used chisels/ planes etc etc.

I think there is the reason you have no luck.

[needsmorecowbel]

then i shall have to pray to zool for guidance...this could take a while

[P Bill]

Stu,

The real value of working with someone producing fine work is learning what is fine and how to produce it yourself.
As far as learning the woodworking skills, there's so much online these days you just have to sort thru the good and the bad and apply yourself.
In modern industry, the only time you'll need a sharp plane is to keep your pencil sharp. Unfortunately, fine furniture and instruments are luxury goods. You don't need a great instrument to make music or a fine dining suite to have lunch. (We'll get that stuff next year...) Shopfitting, carpentry and joinery are the must haves. In those trades you're more like a plumber or a doctor. Absolutely required.

As you learn these skills, try to remove excess timber first with a cutting tool and use an abrasive as a last resort. You'll learn heaps. Good luck.

[Puff]

I cannot recommend the 'Fine Woodworking Techniques' from Taunton Press highly enough. I bought the first four volumes in the mid-eighties and they weren't cheap then so maybe best to haunt the library - cannot imagine anyone onselling them but you might get lucky.

I stand corrected they can be had exceedingly well priced though this may have expired http://www.gnhw.org/member-services/cla ... olumes-19/

IMO would be the best $20 investment you could ever make.

Edited.

[DarwinStrings]

G'day Stu, my attempt at a answer is HERE

Jim

[needsmorecowbel]

If you guys have not already heard of this site it is a brilliant resource for old books. My old man sources books from when he was back at University through this mob:

http://www.abebooks.com/?cm_ven=PFX&cm_ ... 1161544316

They aren't too pricy either

[Alan Stassforth]

They don't want you, unless you're experienced.
They don't want you to use hand tools.
If you want to use hand tools,
it will be a hobby,
or, if you use hand tools and make beautiful items,
and you can actually sell them,
good on you!

[rocket]

They don't want you if you have alot of experience either, because if you have alot of experience you must have been doing it for quite some years, and that means that you aint no spring chicken no more, and we don't like "OLD FARTS" on the job. Besides,,, we have drop saws, nail guns, cnc's and puters these days so you old farts with a lifetime of experience aren't needed, so piss off!
Rod.