Whats wrong with tradies???

[kiwigeo]

OK so I rung up a few tradies last week to get a new TV antenna and cabling installed so I can watch my new digital TV.

First 2 tossers don't call back. The third tosser and his mate (with a huge ring through his nose) turns up and announces that he wont go on the roof becasue its raining and he wont be going under my house ......reckons he wont be able to get the drill in to make the holes in the floor. I get no answer to my suggestion to drill from the other side (just doesnt want to get dirty). I asked him why he bothered coming round then and he gets the shits and pisses off. So much for supporting local business.

On Thursday I logged into Jim's Antennas website....logged in for a quote and 5 minutes later theres a bloke on the mobile asking what time he could come around the next day. Half an hour BEFORE the arranged time he rocks up and we do a quick look at the house and he tells me he can do the job straight away and would I like a quote. Stuff the quote....just for turning up and not being an idiot you've got the job I tell him. 3 hours later the new antenna's fitted along with the cabling and I'm watching Midsommer Murders in full digital splendour.

If anyone in Adelaide wants the number of the guy who did my antenna job then PM me.

[Allen]

We've got a list on the fridge of people we'd call again and recommend to people. Been very luck with plumber, painter, landscaper, sparkie (Liam or Micheal), but the rest can get stuffed. Been trying to get a roofer around since cyclone Yasi and not one will return a call. The local Steel Line Garage doors are by far the worst pricks I've ever had the misfortune to deal with. Should I ever need work on the roller doors again, I'll change the door to a different brand rather than deal with them again.

And I'm like you Martin. I don't try and haggle with the tradie to get the best price. I expect that he needs to make a wage as do I. If they're honest, reliable and provide quality work on time then I'm happy to pay them. Not a hard formula for a successful business model, but I fear that it's a rather rare bird these days.

[Ormsby Guitars]

I'd just like to get plumbers rates for repair work.

The way I see it, Ive spent as much, or more, on tools, then there is the machinery they don't have to worry about, nor the factory/workshop space (they have a ute). Hell, which one takes more skill... plumbing, or luthery? We have to have insurance, both contents and public liability for the building. We need to stock parts.

Had an electrician around last year. $395 for two new ends on two extension leads, one single to double power point conversion, and attach a pre routed wire to a light switch. All done in less than two hours. I supplied the materials. Took him two hours, plus 'call out fee... but we have a job in the same street so can be there soon...'. Unfortunately I was out of the factory and had pre-signed the cheque and my assistant just let him have it rather than question the bill...

The guy used the plastic conduit from my vacuum bag as the conbuit for the wire to the light switch. Only found out what he'd done when I was in the middle of gluing up to tops and couldnt find the male part of the seal...

[kiwigeo]

Here's what I cant work out:

A plumber paid much more than $30 an hour to do jobs that don't really involve keeping a person alive. No degree required.

My wife paid just over $30 and hour. She's a Registered Nurse with a Masters degree who's job entails keeping people alive.

[Paul B]

That's where mates and relo's come in.

I do all the wiring in my place (if I can design and build a better supercapacitor, I can wire a friggin house), I just get my mate who happens to be a sparky, around for a beer or several, and double check my work while he's here.

My brother-in-law is a plumber, I buy the bits, he puts 'em in.

My father-in-law was a house painter.

Another brother-in-law is a Carpenter...

[DarwinStrings]

Do you think that is a fair comparison Martin? Is it fair to compare a plumber who is a contractor who runs a business and has business expenses to a wage earner? If someone goes to university and gets a degree are they more deserving of a reasonable wage that someone who does not have a degree? I do believe though that nurses do a very demanding job that has a great deal of responsibility attached to it for a modest remuneration.

Jim

[liam_fnq]

I think bashing tradies for getting exorbitant wages is a bit rich. You don't see too many driving supercars or living in millionaire's row. If you want to question earnings I'd be looking at rich, white collar, fat cat exec.s who get multiple-million dollar golden hand shakes even when their company's share price plummeted but they sold all their stock cos they got the inside info on the sly.

Ps i do think nurses should be paid more

[kiwigeo]

Do you think that is a fair comparison Martin? Is it fair to compare a plumber who is a contractor who runs a business and has business expenses to a wage earner? If someone goes to university and gets a degree are they more deserving of a reasonable wage that someone who does not have a degree? I do believe though that nurses do a very demanding job that has a great deal of responsibility attached to it for a modest remuneration.

Jim

I think it's a fair comparison. A nurse has the lives of people in his/her hands.......a plumber doesn't. If a nurse makes a mistake because she's overworked or half asleep because she came off a late shift at 11pm the previous night and was back out the door at 6am the next day to do an early shift (this is what they do to my wife on a regular basis) then the possible repercussions can be serious...worse case, people can die. I think it fair that a nurse get paid at least the same hourly rate as a plumber for a job that has far more responsibilities than that of a plumber. If a plumber stuffs up the worse thing that can happen is the customer won't use him again.....from my experience most plumbers don't really worry or even care about such things. If a patient ends up suffering or dying because of the actions of an overworked/tired nurse then that nurse faces deregistration, being hauled up before a nursing board, private legal action and she/he will most likely find it very hard to ever work again as a registered nurse in Australia.

Regarding qualifications...in a nutshell yes a person who's slogged through an undergrad and then a Masters Degree (with first class distinction) should get paid more than someone who's only qualification is a TAFE qualification which has required far less time and cost to acquire. Note also that a plumber is usually engaged in paid work as an apprentice while studying while an undergraduate nurse is not being paid while studying towards his/her undergraduate qualification (my wife was lucky having me to support her financially). Theres a huge difference in cost of a TAFE qualification in plumbing and a university degree in nursing and this should be reflected in remuneration.

[Allen]

Don't forget the cost of tools for a tradie though Martin. It's very fair to say that I would have close to $70,000 in my tool box that I require for my job. And it's an ongoing expense that they need replacing because of wear and tear, upgrading and the car companies keep coming up with new and wonderful ways of attaching things together that require a new and very expensive too.

And yes it is very valid that a Nurse has peoples lives in their hands, are over worked and certainly underpaid, if a Sparkie doesn't do their job right buildings burn down, and people get electrocuted. If I don't do my job right, vehicles don't drive right, wheels fall of at high speeds etc. And yes that happens far more often than anyone cares to mention. Insurance companies would like you to think that "S#!t happens" so they don't get slugged with huge compensation law suits.

Oh, and believe me, panel beaters aren't anywhere near the pointy end of the pay scale.

[kiwigeo]

Don't forget the cost of tools for a tradie though Martin. It's very fair to say that I would have close to $70,000 in my tool box that I require for my job. And it's an ongoing expense that they need replacing because of wear and tear, upgrading and the car companies keep coming up with new and wonderful ways of attaching things together that require a new and very expensive too.

And yes it is very valid that a Nurse has peoples lives in their hands, are over worked and certainly underpaid, if a Sparkie doesn't do their job right buildings burn down, and people get electrocuted. If I don't do my job right, vehicles don't drive right, wheels fall of at high speeds etc. And yes that happens far more often than anyone cares to mention. Insurance companies would like you to think that "S#!t happens" so they don't get slugged with huge compensation law suits.

Oh, and believe me, panel beaters aren't anywhere near the pointy end of the pay scale.

Hi Allen,

My argument has focused on plumbers rather than all tradies.

Looking at your work Allen and your input to this forum I class you as one of a rare group of tradies who are true professionals and take pride in their work. Such tradies are few and far between unfortunately. In this country the quality of service provided by tradies is generally piss poor...my recent experiences with the TV antenna guys is a good example of this. While working under the roof and under the floor of my house with the guy who eventually did the job I found a whole bunch of short cuts my builders had taken during the last lot of work on the house...more examples of sloppy work by unprofessional tradies who just dont give a toss.

Granted my wife doesn't have spray guns and other hardware but she does have a tool box......her years of experience and training as a nurse..particularly in the field of palliative care. When I go to see my GP with a problem my wife has usually already diagnosed whats wrong with me before I walk out the door. She spent half her life working in the Japanese health system so she has also bought her experience of same to this country.

Cheers Martin

[liam_fnq]

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a TV antenna man with trade qualifications. More likely a labourer with an ABN.

Plumbers don't have it as easy as you'd think. As Allen pointed out most have <$50k of tools plus ute, trailer etc. As a licenced trade plumbers can get in quite a bit of trouble for sub-standard work. I don't know the exact details for plumbers but electricians can be fined, suspended, de-registered, sued, charged with manslaughter etc.

I agree that someone who has done a university degree deserves to be payed well to offset the years spent paying to study while not earning. Just as a tradesman who spent four years on apprentice wages deserves to be payed better than a labourer like your antenna man.

[kiwigeo]

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a TV antenna man with trade qualifications. More likely a labourer with an ABN.

Agreed.......most of the idiots that fronted up were probably self taught but the guy who finally did the job was an ex British telecom tech and knew what he was doing. The trick question to ask a TV antenna guy is "what is a BER".....its the bit error rate and its important that it gets measured before even thinking of running cables and erecting an antenna.

[jeffhigh]

Don't forget that the wage earners hourly rate that they receive does not include superanuation, annual sick and other leave, workers compensation and other employer costs.
The self employed or business owner providing services has to cover all these plus vehicle, tools, finance costs, materials inventory etc and then would be unlikely to be able to bill for 8 hours in a day on smaller jobs with travelling, materials collection etc.
Not making any judgements on worth of the various occupations

[kiwigeo]

Don't forget that the wage earners hourly rate that they receive does not include superanuation, annual sick and other leave, workers compensation and other employer costs.
The self employed or business owner providing services has to cover all these plus vehicle, tools, finance costs, materials inventory etc and then would be unlikely to be able to bill for 8 hours in a day on smaller jobs with travelling, materials collection etc.
Not making any judgements on worth of the various occupations

All your points taken on board Jeff but even after taking same into account I still think my wife and other nurses with her experience and skills are getting screwed...... by their employers and also by those amongst the public who suffer from what I call "Florence Nightingale Syndrome"...ie they think all nurses do is make beds and empty bed pans.

[jeffhigh]

I don't disagree with you at all on the value of nurses Martin.
I have a sister and many friends and clients who are nurses.
We need to as a society put enough money into healthcare to pay nurses well and staff hospitals adequately so they can do their job properly.

[seeaxe]

I'll stick my oar in, since Mr Parekh seems to be getting a bit of a rest at the mo and we havent had a decent argument for a while.

I think that there is a differnce between what you are worth and what you are paid.

I'm a civilengineeraholic - For the better part of my 35 years (because I really like it) in this job I have listened to a lot of my colleagues moan about how they are undervalued by society, how lawyers had more status, etc etc. I am sure you have all heard similar things in what ever job you do. What most of them really meant was they didnt think they were paid enough.

I always thought (and said, when I got fed up with listening to them), well if you think the others are getting a better deal, then go and retrain and do that. I would say the same about tradesmen and women and anyone else for that matter - if you think you are underpaid (undervalued, whatever) then go and do something else.

I know someone is going to say "It's not as simple as that" but I reckon it is, unfortunately. Whether you are a ginger beer like me or a plumber or a nurse, chances are you spent a good deal of time learning to do your job well enough so that someone will pay for your services. If you happened to choose a job that a lot of other people also chose, then the laws of supply and demand will dictate that you are not paid a premium wage. You just made an unfortunate choice. There are plenty of plumbers that earn more than I do and my daughter who works in advertising earns more at the start of her career than I do at the end of mine. I don't give a continental because I dont want to be a plumber or an advertiser!

As for worth, I reckon its impossible to say whether one job or role is worth more than another. The most important roles in life are generally unpaid eg mother, father, or low paid eg pastor or whatever your particular denomination calls that person. We are all cogs in the big machine and if we dont all do our bit, then things dont go too well.

Finally, while it seems easy to find a bad plumber or tradie, there are probably just as many bad nurses or bad engineers we just dont interact with them the same way we do with plumbers.

So, in summary, I dont think anything is wrong with tradies (that isn't wrong with the rest of us, too)!!

Cheers

[kiwigeo]

If you happened to choose a job that a lot of other people also chose, then the laws of supply and demand will dictate that you are not paid a premium wage. You just made an unfortunate choice.

This theory doesn't hold with nurses. If it did then Australia and New Zealand wouldn't be suffering the current shortage of nurses. The current shortage of nurses is due to a lack of young people wanting to go into nursing because they know the money is absolute crap. Nurses are paid crap wages largely because of a public perception as to what nurses actually do....see my earlier post where I discuss the Florence Nightingale Syndrome. Employers know this and take advantage of it.

Fortunately for hospitals in NZ and Australia there are still people like my wife who put the welfare of patients before how much they're getting paid and carry on nursing despite the pitiful working conditions and remuneration. Nurses of my wife's generation are close to retiring from the profession and in coming years the people running hospitals are going to be in for a shock when they suddenly discover that they are unable to deliver quality care to patients because the nursing staff lack sufficient experience and training to deliver same.

[Bob Connor]

Not just Aus and NZ Martin. There's a global shortage of nurses.

My missus sounds similar to yours - critical care nurse with a masters who has to put up with a bloke with addictive tendencies when it comes to tonewood.

[Nick]

It's a tricky one & I agree that all people in frontline health should be well paid the money they get currently is absolute shit...unless they are a consultant , mainly because as you say, peoples lives depend on their actions & what do we value most? Human life (supposedly). But on the otherside of the coin, using a scenario of them being well paid, I would rather be nursed back to health by a nurse who loves her work & cares for the patient (such as your wife Martin) rather than a person is only there to collect the fat pay check every week. Sure if the pay was good then the problem with a shortage of nurses, I suspect, would be all but eliminated but what quality of staff would we end up with? There are some real drongo Lawyers who collect their exhorbitant fee's but do sweet FA for their clients & aren't that good at playing lawyer but are happy to do so as long as the Porsche gets valeted twice a week & the kids can still attend the swankiest private schools.
Mind you, being a tradesman, I reckon I deserve more too!

I'll stick my oar in, since Mr Parekh seems to be getting a bit of a rest at the mo and we havent had a decent argument for a while.

[kiwigeo]

Mind you, being a tradesman, I reckon I deserve more too!

I dont think a mad scientist is quite the same as a tradie....