1st guitar throw in the deep end or take it easy?

[y0ud]

Hello

Sporting a garage full of all the right tools and a strong desire to create, I have given my self two starting points when it comes to building my first guitar. Looking for that father son experiance, my father has many years in a woodworking background creating fine furniture from very specific timbers etc, Granted that everything comes in time and my second guitar will be much better then my first, I would like to know (from your experience) which you feel would be a safer road for my to travel.

Build a lightweight guitar with little versatility that I would aim to play shows with (punk rock sound). Be able to take of tour and cop a bit of a beating. To be played through a mesa boogie triple rec and aiming for a hot type of pick up, wether it be bareknuckle nailbomb/warpig or dimarzio high powered etc

Or throw my self in the deep end and try to make a great sounding guitar, something with character.


Question two would be, IS making a guitar with the high gain aim any easier?


looking forward to your input!


thanks

[Allen]

First off, welcome to the forum. We also like to know who we are talking to, so can you please add your name to your posts so we can get to know you. You can use the "User Control Panel" to add a signature to your posts.

Second, I'm not sure if the rest of your post was even English. Just build acoustics, so I'll leave the others to comment.

[DarwinStrings]

G'day and welcome and what Allen said or do we just say "Hey youd"

It depends what you want in the end, something with a high K value doesn't seem to have much tone (to me) but that is subjective and dependent on what sound you wana make. So if you want advice then decide what you want from your first guitar and aim for that, I reckon by the time you get it finished, no matter which way you go, you will be happy with your effort and thinking about the next one which could always be the fork in the road you didn't choose the first time.

Jim

Someone please turn up the Tele!

[y0ud]

thanks for the fast replies everybody (sig added!)

I think I am in need of a cheaper lighter guitar that will suit the high gain sort of sound, I am really leaning towards it. At the same time, I know a good guitar isn't going to come quickly nor first off the bat.


I have seen the bareknuckle pups make a tele growl with the enough low end to feed a family, and am unsure of relationship is altered when dealing with a guitar of that nature. GENERALLY SPEAKING, are these high gain, light guitars easier to make?

[Tod Gilding]

Hi welcome to the forum, If your looking for some growl in that tele I'd recommend talking to Mick Brierly At http://www.brierleyguitarpickups.com.au/index.htm

[needsmorecowbel]

I can Second Tom...Mick does some tasty pickups

[y0ud]

sounds good!

anyone with direct experience making a guitar of such a nature?

[Bob Connor]

Most on here are acoustic makers.

I build a few electrics but I'm not into hotrodding.

The pickups I choose to use are Lindy Fralins. H'e similar to the Australian bloke - essentially hand wound pickups and if you want something different than his stock items he'll make it for you.

I'm not sure if I undestand what you mean by high gain. Do you mean high output? You will only find "gain" on on electric guitar if there is some sort of pre-amp circuit involved. Passive pickups can only vary in output.

For example the last set of Fralin's I used were blues Specials for a tele which were wound for 5% extra output so that the pickup would be presenting a higher output to whatever amp was being used. So they're not high gain, they are higher output.

If you want to find out what does what I suggest you experiment. Get an electric neck from ebay for under a hundred bucks and build a few different weight bodies to it. Get a few different second hand pickups and there's plenty of experimenting there to keep you occupied for ages.

If you look around the net you'll also find wiring instructions for implementing a 4 or 5 way switch in a tele so you can get series, parallel and out of phase settings to increase you somic palette.


Regards

[Nick]

Welcome to the forum Alex. Personally whether you are going to produce a great first effort or a crap one (from the woodwork perspective) I would be installing the best pups you can afford at this time. If they are good but are let down by a poorly made guitar then you can unscrew them & install them on your second guitar (which will have all of the mistakes of the first ones eliminated ). If the guitar turns out to be a killer you will have a guitar that will last you for years to come (pups included), look at Brian May! Others have suggested many good pups that you may decide to use, if you are thinking along Tele lines then you may also want to consider the Texas Tele line of pickups, I can say from personal experience that these are HOT! about half the output again of standard Tele pickups. I've also got a set of Texas Strat pickups sitting on a pickguard waiting for me to finish the rest of the guitar.

Couple of things, firstly when you say "high gain" are you meaning actives or just hot wound passives? I'm not familiar with building a guitar specifically to the pickups, you build for the overall sound you want of the whole guitar & drop the appropriate pups in, at least that's how I've always done it (I built electrics for a number of years before moving into acoustics)
Secondly I'm not sure what exactly you mean by a "light weight" guitar?! Literally light in weight or an absolute 'barebones' clunker? My advice would be build for the sound you want. If you are after crunching fat chords then you will only ever be disappointed with the guitar if you use a timber such as Ash or other dense woods. Mahogany is a timber that's easy to work with & gives a wonderfully fat sound but other timbers similar can be used (Mahog is the main timber used in the Les Pauls). Having said that (and this will negate everything I've just said! ), an effects pedal can overcome many of the timber's input into the overall sound. Even a Tele can be made to sound hot & heavy through a rack unit or pedal. A friend of mine, many years ago, was in a band that had a residency at a local night club, he used a dirt cheap "Vester" plywood bodied Strat copy, but by running it through an effects unit they played tunes that went from the modern 'fluffy' pop tunes of the day right through to Zepplin, it could be light as a feather through to full on grunge.
Good luck with the build and make sure to keep us updated as you progress!

[Puff]

Hi Alex.
A bit like Bob on not understanding a few things but...
Lighter than what, what shape etc. And yes "gain" as I understand things is a result of resistance in the delivery end of the preamp - onboard or otherwise.
There are a growing number of Tele addicts finding they prefer what they get from a pine body - yep dead simple radiata stuff - to what they had from the alders, ashes, mahogany in all its various forms etc.
There are various sites, here's one http://www.jemsite.com/jem/wood.htm and I think the Mottola site is another that gives a good insight into what you can expect from various neck, fretboard and body woods and combos of same. They tend to not mention many options on the lighter/less dense/softer side like radiata (Monterey) or macracarpa (Cyprus) pine, Oregon (Douglas fir), Basswood, Red or Spanish Cedar etc but they are all options as are many of the lighter Oceania natives. It's a bit of a case of extrapolating and then sucking.
Again like Bob I would go out and buy but I would take a slightly different path. For a couple of hundred you can get a reasonable production instrument that will provide a starting point and all the bits for the ongoing experiment a damn sight cheaper than building from parts catalogues. Will give you patterns for replicating bodies and necks ad infinitum and be a reasonable test bed for figuring what pickups do what with what.
Were I in your shoes I would try a variety of body woods/combos with a set of pickups that you already have respect for but the originals would be fine for the learning about body and neck woods, and what does what on the electrics stage.
By the way - don't be surprised at the end of it all if you come back to what you bought for a couple of hundred with a few minor electrics tweeks. Just rub the transfer off the headstock and tell all your fans - "Or shit; it's just a no name guitar."
Bonaventure

[Kamusur]

Hello yOud

If perhaps you are questioning things such as pups etc are you certain you are only thinking about one guitar? Be very very mindful of 3 common chronic illnesses 'GAS, WAS, and GBS as well. (There are no successful treatments or cures available yet.)
On a less serious note now always build with the end guitar/s in mind.

Steve

[y0ud]

Thanks so much for the replies guys, all extremely helpful.

By lighter I simply meant a lightweight (aka not mahogany haha). By high gain/hot I mean a guitar designed to be played through at amp through quite high distortion. I read that the "hotter" the pick up, specially when it comes to the active pups i am looking at, it eats away, to a degree, or the level of impact the timber used has on the overall sound. Correct me if i'm wrong please!

I am not looking at anything flash with the worlds longest sustain or anything, just a timber (doesn't have to be easy to work with) that fits the profile and is lightweight. im leaning towards either telecaster or strat/prs'esk body shape.


And yes, i will be purchasing high quality pick ups that i can use later down the track if need be!

[Puff]

A factor to have in mind is the balance of the end result. A neck with hardware can only be so light and still take the strain. Build for the sound you want, sort the balance (bit of lead down by the output jack), and adjust your strap width to suit for comfort.
From what you have said a Spanish Cedar bodied Tele could be a good affordable middle-ground starting point.
By the way - back in the good old days mahogany wasn't as heavy as it is now. Just all the lighter stuff that made excellent solid bodies has been used long since I have heard that both Basswood and Spanish Cedar are actually mahoganies.

[seeaxe]

I offer this gem from my recent tele building experience - If you aim for a light guitar don't use kwila for the body!!.

Good luck!

[Puff]

Or purpleheart, or totara .....
But maybe just a frag through the guts and as wee patches under the pickups
Not sure what it is as kwila and purlpeheart are not that far apart in density but the recent kwila I have feels half as heavy again as the purpleheart although both lots are similiar dimensions and the same vintage. The older kwila - about 20 years - is about the same weight as the five-year purpleheart.

[DarwinStrings]

I have heard that both Basswood and Spanish Cedar are actually mahoganies.

Basswood is usually Tilia which is from the (now) Malvaceae family so not really "mahogany". Spanish cedar is from the Meliaceae family as is Swietania (American mahoganies) and Khaya (African mahoganies) so I guess it could be stretched to "mahogany".

Alex, using a light weight neck in you electric guitar is very likely to reduce your sustain and this may be so for the body as well unless you do what Ken Parker does with his "Fly" and stiffen it up with carbon fibre.

Jim

[Puff]

Thanks for jumping in Jim. The basswood thing was possibly some entity justifying guitar specs that got picked up by Wiki
For scary stuff http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/guitars/ see them necks shake
That said I recall reading a comment from Rick Turner that the technically and mechanically superb maple, purpleheart, ebony laminate combo necks by Alembic landed with him as a bit "sterile" and on his parting with Alembic he went with more mahogany in the mix.
Mass in the headstock and in the tail (wherever the strings terminate) effect sustain and I believe Mr Les Paul was also a fan of mass (brass plate) under his pickups. Please have in mind though that Mr Paul was a fan of building 'clean' sounds and leaving the rest to the backroom boys.

[y0ud]

money isnt really a worry at the moment puff, what wood would you suggest will be the best quality for my situation. disregarding the timbers ease of use

[Puff]

Far too big a question as I do not know what you want as a result or what you are going to use electrically go there.
The Jemsite thing on woods will give an indication of what you can 'expect' but you don't always get what you want. Tis mix and match and, to a degree, hope.
The guts on necks from the very hards of the Alembic laminates to the not so hards of mahogany and Spanish Cedar are reasonably well documented.
Then the fretboard comes into play - disregard that at your peril.
For a jumping off point with a bit of warmth Spanish cedar would be a good body core and you could drop in tops and backs for the visuals. That said I don't know where you are and what wood is available there. Take Spanish Cedar/light mahogany relative as a jumping off point.
The tail piece/saddles also enter play.
But as said -'tis a big question that many seek to find the perfect answer to. Not possible as the perfect answer is not available to us mortals as we all have different perceptions and even they vary from time to time/song to song.
Think that's part of the reason young Keith has so many teles

[Nick]

I'll stick my neck out, after having stripped many electric guitars back to repaint, & say Basswood is a nice light timber (Ibanez have been using it for years on their leccies) that would suit also you may want to consider Poplar if you can find any (I know Gerrard Gilet used to sell it in body sized bits but doesn't anymore). Both are light, easily worked timbers but don't take too many hard knocks (are soft when it comes to impacts!). Don't know if it's available in Aussie, but I've built many an axe out of Beech with good results.

[y0ud]

what a marvellous journey this shall be haha. garage is officially clean and i am extremely excited to get started.

we are planning on going to a few timber yards tomorrow that the aus woodwork magazines says a few luthiers from melbourne purchase from, just going to go and get a feel for the different types and weights and what not!



I post on quite a few forums and i must say, this forum and contributors have a great community feel to it. very excited to keep posting

[Nick]

I post on quite a few forums and i must say, this forum and contributors have a great community feel to it. very excited to keep posting

We aren't too bad a pack of bastards Alex & like to think that we do have a nice community feel going on here.

[Puff]

Good hunting.

[Dominic]

Hey Alex, I make electric guitars. I like playing SOAD, Metallica, Trivium and punk rock stuff like Offspring but I love that heavy sound through heavy amps. I use and love EMG active pickups and have put them in all my electrics. I have a flying V (mine), and Epi LP, an ESP Kirk hammett, an IC400 (mine) an explorer (mine) and an RG (mine). And the surprising thing is they all sound quite different even with EMG 81s (although the IC400 has active Seymour Duncans). So my conclusion is that body shape has an influence on sound as well as wood.

This may help. For my RG I used Aust red cedar for the body with a flamed maple cap. I also used some light Qld maple for the neck and put carbon fibre in it for stability. The cedar is really light and resonant and the whole guitar is heaps lighter than a factory guitar. It sounds a bit warmer than the ESP but still has cut and is a pleasure to play. I love the shape, it hangs in the right place on a strap and its lightness means its easy to throw around. The cedar is pretty soft so I also put a bit of hard maple under the neck pocket so the bolts had a harder surface to contact.

Good luck.
Dom

[Bob Connor]

what a marvellous journey this shall be haha. garage is officially clean and i am extremely excited to get started.

we are planning on going to a few timber yards tomorrow that the aus woodwork magazines says a few luthiers from melbourne purchase from, just going to go and get a feel for the different types and weights and what not!



I post on quite a few forums and i must say, this forum and contributors have a great community feel to it. very excited to keep posting

Australian Furniture Timbers and Matthews would be the most likely places you'll get decent guitar timber from.

Regards