Weissenborn Copy No 2.

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Bob Connor
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Weissenborn Copy No 2.

Post by Bob Connor » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:35 pm

I enjoyed building the first one so much I started another.

This one's Blackwood back and sides with a Celery Top Pine (Phyllcocladus aspleniifolius) Top. For folks not familiar with this wood it's not a pine as such but a hardwood but there is quite a bit of variation in the species so you could find Celery top that is soft enough and light enough for a top. (if you're lucky) but generally it's pretty hard and would usually make a nice back and side set.

However for a Weissenborn style guitar I reckon it could work very well. It's certainly a very resonant timber but it's a little too heavy compared with Spruce or Cedar.

Here's some pics of where I'm at with this one. There's quite a few pics of the top so you can see how it could be mistaken for Spruce, particularly Red Spruce.

Celery Top ages to a lovely golden colour.
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Allen
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Re: Weissenborn Copy No 2.

Post by Allen » Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:00 pm

Yep, looking at those shots I'd bet the farm it was spruce and wouldn't ever think it was an Australian Native.
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Re: Weissenborn Copy No 2.

Post by John Maddison » Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:30 pm

Hi Bob
Where did you score those Black-Maroon/Purple?-Black strips you've used in the rosette?
Ta
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Re: Weissenborn Copy No 2.

Post by Bob Connor » Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:33 pm

It came from Gurian John.
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Re: Weissenborn Copy No 2.

Post by Bob Connor » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:39 pm

Top is braced and will go on tomorrow. I changed the bracing in the upper bout to include an A brace.
IMG_0113.JPG
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Re: Weissenborn Copy No 2.

Post by christian » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:46 pm

Hey Bob,

Great choice of timbers there Bob !!! really looking forward to hearing how it sounds, love a good Weis build.
Interestingly enough we have a celery pine in NZ too its called Tanekaha means (Strong Man) botanical name (Phyllocladus trichomanoides)
and your description of the timber is exactly how i would describe ours,from your pics looks identical too.

all the best.

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Re: Weissenborn Copy No 2.

Post by Kim Strode » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:23 pm

I take it the last lap slide guitar was a great success for you to embark on a new one so quickly. I'd like to find the time to take a trip to Geelong to see and hear how these two look and sound.

I really like the look of your top bracing - I know little about bracing, but it looks well balanced. The bracing close to the neck looks a lighter than your previous build. Could you please provide some dimensions on the height and width of the different bracing structure.
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Re: Weissenborn Copy No 2.

Post by Nick » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:11 am

I have some of the Kiwi Celery Top that Christian mentions (TaneKaha), it'll have to be a three piece top though so that will be interesting to see how that sounds. What variations did you have to make to the top (over your normal procedure) to account for the extra stiffness Bob? Also the thing that always puzzles me with the weezies is the larger footprint of the bridge plate, what is the thinking behind that?
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Re: Weissenborn Copy No 2.

Post by Bob Connor » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:13 am

Kim - I'll let you know when it's ready. You are always welcome down at Geelong - just give me a call.

The bracing around the top is certainly stronger on this one due to the A brace but the transverse braces themselves are wider and not as tall as the first one. I did the A brace after having another look at Dave White's bracing method.

The first Weiss has been strung up for a week and there's absolutely no deformation in the top at this point, which is a bit disappointing. Not even any pull up in the lower bout. Probably means it's overbraced but it sounds fine to my ears so I'll keep experimenting. I have tucked the lower legs of the X-braces in these two. On the next one I'll leave them untucked and observe and listen to what happens. I also haven't scalloped the braces. (which I'll also do on the next one) I reckon I'll build half a dozen before a get a handle on how they're supposed to be built (and then play/observe for a few years to see if they fall apart :D ) They are really quick to construct given there is no neck to carve and you don't have to frig around with frets and actions. If I had two go-bar decks I reckon I could knock one up in under a week (no finish though)

Those two Celery tops are from the same family Christian. I'd usually think it'd make a better back and side set than a top. It's just a bit too heavy but since Weissenborn tops were traditionally made from hardwoods I thought it may just work. I know Maton have tried it for tops and were unimpressed (but they were interested in seeing the acoustic I'm planning to build with it.)

Nick - considering the size of these things the soundboard is quite thin. Around 2.4-2.5mm. The oversized/wide bridge plate is to counter the rotational forces of the bridge which is a bit more than a standard acoustic. The strings on my first one sit 17mm from the soundboard. A lot of the early Weissenborns self destructed due to stresses in this area and apparently some of the new Chinese copies have tried to emulate the early designs :lol: .

I use that wide bridge plate in all my instruments now so I can light things up in other areas, particularly the lower bout. And the lattice bracing in the lower bout spreads the stiffness evenly across the area, much more so than the standard, diagonal Martin style braces. I'm not saying it's any better - It's just that I'm getting the results that I like to hear from it. I really don't think there is too much wrong with that big bridge plate as it adds some mass and maybe some inertia in the centre of the vibrating plate and allows me to free up around the edges a little more. I've been influenced by Jim Olson and Ervin Somogyi in this respect. And certainly I pinched the lattice idea from Ervin. I like to strengthen everything up in that area from the bridge to the fingerboard (the corridor of uncertainty) so I can go light up on other areas that will make more of a difference i.e. south of the soundhole.

This all makes sense on the Weissenborn as well given the higher action and potentially 15-60 string guages.

Hope that mindless rambling made some sense :D

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Re: Weissenborn Copy No 2.

Post by Nick » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:57 am

Mindless ramblings made perfect sense Bob, thanks for your viewpoint especially on the bridge plate. A larger inertial mass (providing the strings have enough driving force to begin with) would certainly make sense in keeping the plate going, do you find,or think, it 'thins' the sound at all by accentuating the top end? I finally have Ervin's books but haven't read them yet, I'm interested in finding out his thinkings/musings in this area as they've obviously sparked some thoughts & ideas in your swede(didn't realise he espoused the lattice bracing either :oops: ...better make time to do some reading!).
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Re: Weissenborn Copy No 2.

Post by Bob Connor » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:35 pm

Getting close now. Just have to make a fingerboard and slap some jam on it.
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Re: Weissenborn Copy No 2.

Post by ozziebluesman » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:52 pm

That binding is so tasteful Bob.

Does this one have a different tap tone to the first slide guitar?

I will be very interested in your thoughts on the two guitars when they are finished.

I reckon these two will leave the nest if you take them to the Port Fairy Fest this year!

Beauitiful workmanship.

Cheers

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Re: Weissenborn Copy No 2.

Post by Allen » Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:15 pm

I like that binding Bob. Is it from Gurian?
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Re: Weissenborn Copy No 2.

Post by Bob Connor » Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:58 pm

I got the binding from Gerard Gilet but I think I may get some custom made from Gurian that are long enough for a Weiss.

Yeah I like it too . It's got a bit of old timey look about it but it's not too over the top like some of the ropey Weissenborn bindings can be.

Alan - the Celery Top taps with a little more high end.

Both of these they haven't had much of a bong off them until the bindings have gone on. Funny because the 6 strings I build sound fine until you cut the binding/purfling channels and the tap tone returns when you put the binding on.
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Re: Weissenborn Copy No 2.

Post by Bob Connor » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:24 am

Nick wrote:Mindless ramblings made perfect sense Bob, thanks for your viewpoint especially on the bridge plate. A larger inertial mass (providing the strings have enough driving force to begin with) would certainly make sense in keeping the plate going, do you find,or think, it 'thins' the sound at all by accentuating the top end? I finally have Ervin's books but haven't read them yet, I'm interested in finding out his thinkings/musings in this area as they've obviously sparked some thoughts & ideas in your swede(didn't realise he espoused the lattice bracing either :oops: ...better make time to do some reading!).

No I don't find that it thins out the bottom end at all Nick. In fact it allows me to accentuate the monopole response by lighten up the perimeter which will give more bottom end.
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Re: Weissenborn Copy No 2.

Post by Bob Connor » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:27 pm

Started finishing it today with Mirotone 30% gloss.

I also started another one which is Figured Myrtle with a Huon Pine top which should be finished fairly soon as well.

Here's some pics of both.
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Re: Weissenborn Copy No 2.

Post by Steve » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:32 am

Absolute beauties Bob - that Myrtle is spectacular.
You're going to have to put an extension on the house to put all these weissenborns.

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