Archtop #2

[Dominic]

Hey, despite saying i would make my pantograph on the weekend it didn't happen. I ended up getting stuck into the next batch of guitars including 2 MJ cutaways, a 13 fret cutaway L-00, another hauser classical and an archtop. We've seen plenty of archtop builds here but I don't recall seeing anyone actually carve a top or back so i thought I would post my progress. Here goes. If anyone has any comments or thinks I am stuffing something up please let me know. Its only my second archtop so I don't want anyone picking up any bad habbits I may have.

Top is sitka from Alaska Tonewoods. B&S are maple from SM. It has been glued and cut out pretty close to final size which makes carving the profile more consistent as you don't have to account for any overhang.

I am using wedges so the first step is to thin down the edges around the neck and tail blocks and the waist. I use my home made scrub plan, a block plane and my Ibex palm plane. This is so the safety planer can get into those areas to cut the margin.

Archtop 001 (Custom).JPG

Next I have set up my safety planer and in two passes take the margin where the re-curve will go down to around 10mm. I have attached a rounded piece of 9mm mdf under the planer to act as a stop so the margin is nice and consistent at around 30mm in from the edge. You can just make it out in the pic.
You can see here it is a nice even line which is very difficult to do free hand.

Archtop 003 (Custom).JPG

Archtop 005 (Custom).JPG

Lastly, I have hollowed out the back a bit so when I flatten it I am only sanding the glue edge and not the whole back. There is not a lot to play with on a 17" archtop from the wedges I got so I left flattening the back to last so I had enough to carve with.

Archtop 007 (Custom).JPG

Next step is to use the various arch templates and carve those into the top before joining all the curves up. I'll post more pics soon.
Dom

[ozziebluesman]

Very timely Dom. I'm still researching but about to have a go at an archtop myself shortly. I've bought the Benedetto dvds and book. Both are great resources but still lacking some imformation.

I will be watching this post

Thanks

Alan

[sebastiaan56]

I got sent this video Dom, I know its about violins but there may be useful bits in there for you,


youtu.be/

[Clancy]

I ended up getting stuck into the next batch of guitars including 2 MJ cutaways, a 13 fret cutaway L-00, another hauser classical and an archtop

Sounds like a luthier's version of 'nesting' to me
How long have you got to get all that done?

[Dominic]

Alan, best way to fill in the gaps in your knowledge is to just go for it. Unless you are using the chainsaw method (thanks Seb) its pretty hard to go too far wrong as long as you check your profile templates often. Also, its a bit of work so making your tools comfortable to hold helps. Benedetto suggested adding a palm stop the back of the blade on the ibex palm plane. I made one from off cuts of ebony fingerboard and it makes the plane much more comfortable to use for extended periods. It just slips off for blade sharpening.

Archtop 006 (Custom).JPG

This thing also caught my eye. Looks perfect for scooping out tops and backs. Might try to make a wooden one.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.a ... 88&p=54888

Craig, I suppose I have 2 months of catching up to do. That's a long time to sit around thinking about guitars while thousands of km away from my workshop. I'll post more pics of the others as I get to them. Have bent the sides for the classical and one of the MJ cutaways. Hope you didn't get flooded, I read its been raining a lot out your way.
Cheers
Dom

[rocket]

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Dominic, as a reference point i get the inside of the plate dead flat with no twist at all, then after cutting the shape quite close i mark graduation lines on the plate as shown, along these lines i drill holes at varying depths from the flat inside. then when i carve the plate down until those drill holes disapear i should have the contour that i desire, the drill hole depths are worked out using Benedettos arched pattern. When i get close to the rough shape then i use my safe-t-planer as you have, I hope this helps.
Cheers ''' Rod.

[Dominic]

Thanks Rod, where did you get your slab cut top from and what type of wood is it? Gotta say I love doing all this carving.
Dom

[Nick]

Gotta say I love doing all this carving.
Dom

Great isn't it! As Benedetto says in his DVD, there's nothing like hearing the noise of the plane on the wood, also helps you to get a feel for how the wood is going to react to flex & vibration.
I usually carve the outer as you've done Dominic then use Rod's 'hole' technique to help with carving the inside profile (ala Benedetto) but also as Rod mentioned, I like to start with a flat surface. I usually get my wedges from Alaska specialty woods (which is all Sitka Spruce) but have also tried the LMI European "master" grade which was nice stuff. In the link you'll also see that Brent at Alaska supplies 'Slab' Spruce if you want to go that way.

[rocket]

Dominic,, It's quarter sawn sitka, and i got it from Mathews timber in Vermont, it came in the shape of 600x250x53 Frank Vandenboom kindly ripped it down the guts for me as my bandsaw isn't quite big enough to resaw stuff this size, i'm gonna have to upsize one day.
Cheers,,,Rod.

[Kamusur]

I just love the luthiers footwear, it adds so much to a chainsaw video lol. But seriously the worrying fact is that there will be a few who don't get the humour and take the video seriously.

Steve

[rocket]

Where's the humor Steve? doesn't everyone use a chainsaw to bulk out a plate? I recomend wearing steel cap boots though..
Cheers,, Rod.

[charangohabsburg]

[...] the worrying fact is that there will be a few who don't get the humour and take the video seriously.

No worries. This dude would carve the whole violin from one piece, hollowed out and bridge attached. (Note his detailing chainsaw!)
The main problem with chainsaw carving is the chain oil which gets spread on the wood and the bare feet. There are cleaner working devices if fast carving is required.

Thanks for the great pics, Dominic. Very inspiring margin carving method with the Save-T planer and distance holder.

[Dominic]

I've been busy this weekend. I've got the neck and tail blocks glued up on one MJ and the classical. Also made 5 fret boards and bent up some strips to make solid linings.
But most fun was the work I did on the archtop. I made two new planes, one with a beautiful curved hock blade and one with a toothed blade I got with my palm plane. Both are made as scrub planes for rapid stock removal. They work either pushing or pulling. Heres a pic.

Archtop2 002 (Custom).JPG

So I have been working on the arch on the long axis and smoothing it out towards to sides but my main focus is getting the arch right down the glue line. Nearly there. The arching is a bit high still and i need to lower the whole curve. You can see the dark spots where I have not cleaned off the outside wood from the wedge yet. The new hock blade plane works great and I can plane against the grain and it still cuts clean. For the initial hunking out of material I had it set for a very aggressive cut and it didn't take long to get down to the basic shape. Next step is to refine the arching from the centre out and and work on blending it all into the recurve area. This is so much fun. Last picture is of the cutaway MJ.
Dom

Archtop2 001 (Custom).JPG

Archtop2 008 (Custom).JPG

[J.F. Custom]

Very nice work all round Dom.

That is one productive weekend ; me, I can't seem to string a couple of consecutive hours in the shop presently Very frustrating but hopefully this week will pan out for the better.

I've got an archtop sitka set that has been sitting there for probably 7 years now, haunting me . Really must get around to it soon, but I feel I am saying that a lot at the moment.

I have to mention something my eyes picked out in your original photos - and again in the last. That is one nice bit of high end kit there I've had the fortune to have a play on one a few times, but don't own it. May not be to everyones taste aesthetically, but it functions flawlessly - and you'll be passing it to the kids in the same condition in another 50 years Nice.

Cheers,

Jeremy.

[Dominic]

Jeremy, if you haven’t done an archtop yet go for it. Get your set glued up and cut to shape and you’ll find its hard to resist having a go at with your planes when you see it and it’ll end up carving itself. I love the sitka but even the maple is fun to carve.

Yes its a nice plane. Got it for my birthday. Beautiful to use and just to look at. I use it a lot.

Cheers
Dom

[J.F. Custom]

Hey Dom.

I have done "archtops" before - just not a "full size arch top guitar" version. But yeah, got to get around to it. I've got a player interested in any I make too so I should really follow through. May do it as a project on the side of others this year... I'll have to decide what timber to use for the back and side material.

On that note out of interest, I know a family of violin makers all traditionally trained in Germany. The father has been crafting them for 50 odd years now, the sons for roughly 25-30; a fair amount of collective experience there. In any case, speaking with him on timber options one day, he stated that although he has tried some local alternative back and sides, he has found nothing as good as European Maple, except one. That one was Qld. Maple which he stated can make superb instruments. Now violins and archtop guitars are two entirely different beasts, but it is an interesting observation nevertheless - not that we were unfamiliar with its potential in all instrument forms, but there you go. Sorry for the digression...

That's a nice present to have received. Nothing like good tools.

Jeremy.

[Clancy]

Very productive work Dom & lovely new planes.
I can't seem to get a stretch of productive workshop time without making a stuff up & having to redo the work, wasting the time I do get.

Hey Jeremy, I got one of those lovely silver planes for my birthday too. I promptly dropped it on a concrete floor.
Luckily it landed on the norris adjustment level so the plane body has stayed 'true' and unmarked.
Unluckily the adjustment level bent badly and although I straightened it I can still feel the 'kink' when I turn it and there is now a 1/4+ turn of backlash that wasn't there originally.
Plane still works great as ever though

[Dominic]

Jeremy, that is curious because Qld maple is nothing like euro maple. I have seen discussion of using mahogany for B&S of archtops. I've also been thinking that Tas myrtle might be worth trying. Imagine a tiger myrtle archtop?? I got some nice boards (not tiger unfortunately) and it is quite like Qld maple as far as weight goes. I am sure there are lots of woods that when used properly will make great archtops. There are about 8 people building all cedar archtops on the luthiers forum (thanks Padma). That’s top, B&S and even necks all built using cedar. Even if we only learn that cedar does not make good archtops we have progressed the art but reports have so far been positive.

They are very young instruments relative to violins and there must be plenty of scope to push design and material boundaries. Any of the woods used to build flat tops would be worth trying and the relative importance of the back compared with flat tops might open up a whole new palate of tone colours. There seems to be far less experimentation in the production of archtop guitars, with some obvious exceptions like the Ken Parker we saw recently, with mostly curly maple B&S and neck and spruce tops.

Craig, I remember you told me about dropping your Nx60. Did you try to get a new knob? Lee Valley must sell parts. Given it will last several hundred years I suppose there is no rush. I dropped my Gordon Plane blade while tapping setting it and apart from nearly slicing my leg open on the way down landed on the corner of the blade and put a tiny chip in it. I was lucky it landed on the corner but such a beautiful blade, I got rubber mats after that and can drop my tools with impunity.

Have fun everyone.
Dom

[Mike Thomas]

As you say, Dominic, Tasmanian Myrtle may well be a good choice for archtop back and sides. Back in the 90's, Doug Finlay, a Tasmanian professional violin maker, a graduate of Newark, got a joint scholarship from the Tasmanian Conservatorium of Music and the University of Tasmania, to look at which of the Tasmanian timbers might make good violins, cellos etc. His initial aim was to see which Tassie timbers might make at least good student grade instruments. I believe his conclusion was that Myrtle was by far the best choice for backs and ribs. Sassafras was, I think, the choice for necks. As Jeremy said, violins and cellos aren't guitars, but it is likely that what works well for a violin will be worth considering for an archtop.

[Dominic]

Mike, the stuff I have is so light and quite nice bright tap tone i just figured it would be a good alternative to mahogany, the grain is also very fine and easy to work. I've been using bit of it for neck and tail blocks.

Anyway, I mentioned the veritas pull shave a while ago and was going to make a wooden one but I splashed out and ordered one. I have just shapened it up and had a go at the archtop. Gotta say its a lovely tool, the pull action gives a lot more control because your arms are getting closer to your body and the radius is perfect for the inside curves around the edge of the outside of the top. A light touch was good for doing detail work around the horn. Plus it will obviously be good for the inside. Its gonna be a dream compared to my other planes for the maple. So while I was checking it out I carved the rough profiles of the waist on each side.

Archtop2a 001 (Custom).JPG

Archtop2a 004 (Custom).JPG

Dom

[J.F. Custom]

Jeremy, that is curious because Qld maple is nothing like euro maple.
Dom

Indeed Dom although I think his comparison was not that the timbers themselves are "alike", but that they both make exceptional violins. I know his main bane against Blackwood for example was it's average weight. I doubt he has explored many alternative Australian materials such as Myrtle though - particularly the lesser known ones. I guess he probably doesn't have the drive or see a need to - violins tend to have a fairly standardized conservative appearance. Not many are breaking that mould too much - which may of course, simply be market driven.

Back on topic though, as I mentioned before - they are completely different. Archtops to an extent are going to be more comparable to flat tops than to the broader violin family. Bowing the strings as opposed to the rapid attack and decay of plucking, as well as the direct coupling of the soundpost front to back makes a huge difference. In that respect, I think the scope for archtop timbers would be much more akin to that of flat tops as you suggest.

What's with the flash birthday presents?? Is this normal and if so, how does one go about convincing the other half this is the norm? Half both your luck.

Anyway, your archy is progressing nicely!

Jeremy.

[Dominic]

Hey, I've been really busy at work since i got back from Poland and have not had much time to work on the archtop. But the top is roughed and I am thinking about carving the inside.
Then I saw this interesting take on internal braces and was thinking of giving it a go. No loss of energy transfer due to poor glue lines etc. This guy uses a CNC but its not that complicated to do by hand. I have only seen one comment on this technique and that was critical because the braces on this particular guitar were too thick. But this is a comment on execution not on technique.

Anyone got any thoughts on archtop braces like this?
Dom

Integral braces (Custom).jpg

Integral braces6 (Custom).jpg

[Nick]

Interesting take Dom! I just wonder how much strength would be in the braces, with the tops of them carved/shaped the way they are there would be an awefull lot of short fibres running along the tops of the braces. Traditional style has the straight grain running the length of the brace with any short fibres (due to the formed radius) glued directly to the plate but this one has the tops of the braces contoured as well as curved sideways so nearer the plate would be the only place that would have a single bit of almost full length longitudinal grain running along it. Not saying this method wouldn't have merit & it may well be the next "new" thing, but just from my own personal observation I don't think the extra work would be of any benefit, worse of anything from a strength point of view. I do like his 'f' hole shape though, very swishy.

[Clancy]

ColeClark do a similiar thing with their flat tops, carving the bracing out of the top rather than glueing on bracewood.
I thought about this approach once, pretty much as you have done, but rejected it for the same reasons as Nick. (Funny, I don't think I've got a great mind )

Having seen it done now, I think it looks really cool. Is this instrument going to be similiar enough to your 1st archtop that you'll be able to do a comparison when finished?
I for one would be very interested in what you think & I actually enjoy being proven wrong on something (unless it's the guitar widow proven right...again... )

[Dominic]

I know what you mean Nick but it is no different to all the short grain in the actual top. Its only the short grain (run out) viewed from above the brace that is any different than glued braces with the same profile. A few strategically glued roves of carbon fibre should overcome any short grain structural issues. But this guy (Michael McCarthy) doesn't seem to have any issues and in fact swears by it. So I'll give it a go and see what happens.
He has a very interesting web site if you want to check out his other thoughts on archtops.
Cheers
Dom
http://www.mccarthystringedinstruments. ... age23.html