Cutting "f" holes

[rocket]

I was just wondering if any of you other violin, bass, archtop builders have a prefered method of cutting out "f" holes in the top plate. Some internationally well known luthiers say they prefer a pin guided router to cut the "f" holes out, i haven't progressed to that stage in my shop but at the same time feel that that method is maybe a bit brutal for some of the fragile edges around "f" holes, whether they be in a guitar or bass or cello. So far i've only cut them out by hand, using a fret saw and sanding sticks, a slow labour intesive process but it works, and there's a great deal less chance of breakage. I don't mind spending the time that is needed to shape the sound hole and indeed get a great deal of satisfaction out of seeing it develope, but at the same time am curious as to what methods any of you employ to creat these "f"ing little sound holes.
This little baby took me about two hours to shape!!!!
Cheers,,,, Rod

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[Clancy]

I still do them by hand with a coping saw, but then I still do most things by hand (haven't even got around to getting a belt sander )

I know Dom set up a pin router type jig when he did his first archtop.

[Dominic]

Hey Rod, yes I used my drill press to make a pin router. I made a wooden bracket that fit to the drill chuck to hold a laminate trimmer and then made a template that ran in a pin in the table underneath as in Benedetto’s book. The hardest bit was getting a very accurate template to start with. I use clear sheet and took my time then transferred that to my mdf template. There was a bit of twisting play in the drill press but my machine has a screw which I could tighten and take out play. Once I had this all set up it took seconds to cut two perfect f holes.
I’ll get some pictures of it for the forum when I get home in a couple of weeks.
Cheers
Dom

[kiwinoz62]

Hey Rod,
I'm still trying to work out how to shape the top & back

[peter.coombe]

I cut the round bits with a forstner bit in the drill press, then cut the rest of the F hole with a power fretsaw. Then I clean it up with an automotive points file and a round file. Doesn't take long if you are very careful with the fretsaw. The thing to watch out for is tearout from the forstner bit. To prevent this, cut until the point comes through, then turn the top over and cut from below.

[matthew]

I cut big FFin' FFs ... and I mark the outline through the pattern with a pin, then score the outline with a knife carefully over the spruce reeds, then take out as much of the waste with a forstner bit before finishing with a coping saw, rasp, knife and sanding sticks.

this is part of the carving. Its where your personality and skill shows through. Don't waste that opportunity with a power tool!

[Nick]

I'm with you Rod and cut & shape by hand, even using a pin router Benedetto still has to finish his 'f' points by hand. It's only an 1/8th to 3/16ths thick in this area anyway so to me doesn't require that much work when you look at the total amount of time you have/will spend on the instrument & would rather go carefully than risk breaking something at this stage of the operation.

[sebastiaan56]

I drill the holes with a Brad bit and then remove the rest with a scalpel. Nice sharp edges!

[P Bill]

I do it by hand as well. However I 'm looking for an older, smallish pin router. Many uses for a p.r. in luthiery.

[rocket]

Thanks for the response there people, i don't feel as though i'm unsophisticated at all now that i know so many others are opting for the hand tools too. I like the idea of using a sharp blade to cut the outline, dont't know why i didn't think of that myself! and i like Mathews viepoint, that this, as is carving a plate, is an oportunity to show ones skill and personality.
Cheers,,,, Rod

[matthew]

... like - do you cut the edges of the FFs perpendicular to the plate edge, or to the plate surface? Different effect. Do you "flute" the lower tab?

[rocket]

I cut them perpendicular to the plate edge or paralell to the side, i've only fluted the lower tab on a violin, haven't expressed myself that far on an archtop yet, might be a nice addition to the particular one in question though, thanks for the nudge Mathew!!
Cheers,,,Rod.

[Dominic]

... like - do you cut the edges of the FFs perpendicular to the plate edge, or to the plate surface? Different effect. Do you "flute" the lower tab?

Matthew, what do you mean by flute the lower tab?
Dom

[matthew]

I mean hog it out a bit, let it flow into the edges.

[Dominic]

Thanks Matthew, cool detail. I suppose it could get a bit lost on an archtop but you could really get into it on instruments like a cello or larger.

Nick, I followed Bob B’s instructions when cutting the f holes and did it before final thicknessing of the plate. So it was probably more like 6 or 7mm when I cut them. Then once bound they felt pretty strong even when taken down 3 or 4mm at final thickness. I want to do my next one unbound so perhaps I will have to be a little more careful. I saw somewhere a picture of tiny braces inside to support the tabs. Looks like a decent insurance policy on unbound f holes.
Cheers
Dom

[P Bill]

Dom
The fluteing is done on fiddles as well.

[P Bill]

By the way, I see you've done violin style ff's, nice.