tonewood prices. . .

[kiwinoz62]

Hi everyone,
Happy New Year & all the best for 2011.
Is it my imagination or am I correct or wrong in noticing the price of tonewood has gone up from our local suppliers ( Guitarwoods, Guitaraust, Luthiersupplies ).
In particular I am speaking about the price of fingerboards, bridge & neck material, as I am currently looking to stock up.
Where do other forum members source their timber stock from ?
Or is, oops. . . that top secret.

Thanks for any info, comments.

[woodrat]

Hi Wayne, I have not noticed because I try not to get anything from retail vendors as the price is usually too much. As for fingerboard, bridge and headplate veneer material I have bought on two occasions from Ashok Perekh in Mumbai in India and the ebony and rosewood has been of good quality. His prices for these small items seems reasonable . He really wants return business so his service is good.
He has a website and he sometimes rings you on Skype to see if you need anything or if you order has arrived.

John

[kiwigeo]

Hi everyone,
Happy New Year & all the best for 2011.
Is it my imagination or am I correct or wrong in noticing the price of tonewood has gone up from our local suppliers ( Guitarwoods, Guitaraust, Luthiersupplies ).
In particular I am speaking about the price of fingerboards, bridge & neck material, as I am currently looking to stock up.
Where do other forum members source their timber stock from ?
Or is, oops. . . that top secret.

Thanks for any info, comments.

You'll notice there's a list of preferred vendors on the main index. Many of our members deal with these guys and I think you'll find they charge a fair price for their products and provide good service.

My main suppliers are Shane Neiffer at Highmountain Tonewood (Lutz spruce), Graham Hein (great Engleman) and Tim Spittle (all sorts of tonewood).

Cheers Martin

[sebastiaan56]

I have noticed price increases as well. I would have thought these will be offset by the higher dollar but it doesnt seem that way. I know that the competition has been reducing and there are more out of stocks as well. I mainly deal with Tim Spittle for tonewood.



If there is any good stuff left after Martin has got to it.....

[DarwinStrings]

G'day Wayne. When I saw your post I had a look at finger boards and did notice a bit of a difference. Not knowing what species you are after I looked at ebony. First I checked ALS and noticed they sell what they refer to as just "African ebony 1st quality" for $51, then checked Gilet who sell what they call "Dark African ebony A grade" for $44. I then headed to the USA and checked LMI who sell "Madagascar ebony 1st grade" for $37US and their "West African ebony 1st grade" for $20US. Quite a price range really so I guess it pays to shop around. One surprise was ALS selling Cooktown ironwood fret boards for $38, then I checked Tim Spittle and he has very pretty curly Wandoo for $20, again I guess it depends on what you want in the way of species.

Jim

[Dominic]

Wayne, one point you make that is common in the whole retail industry in Australia is that the change from the much stronger dollar seems to have gone into their pockets rather than being passed on to the consumer. I've been watching the price of the new spiral cutter jointer at CT which came out when the dollar was around 80cents but there has been no change in price. That’s a 25% saving to the importers that is being denied to consumers.

Economists call the effect pass-through and studies indicate that first-stage pass-through, prices paid by importers for goods from OS respond very rapidly and completely to changes in the exchange rate but that second stage pass-though, from importers to consumers is often very slow and incomplete. This is fine when the dollar is volatile around a steady average but the dollar has been up and up in recent years. In other words, retailers are ripping off consumers and increasing their margins. Studies also show that productivity in the retail industry is around only half what it is in the US.

I hate paying US dollars for goods from Australian retailers for so many reasons but at least when the dollar is strong we all benefit.
Cheers
Dom

[liam_fnq]

My reply is simply to take my dollars offshore. If the Australian Suppliers aren't willing to pass on the savings then I do my best to shop with international suppliers. It's a bit more difficult with stationary power tools of course. I don't believe all Australian suppliers are guilty though.
You also may have noticed that while not passing on savings with one hand, the major retailers are also trying to taketh away with the other by lobbying for a reduction of tax free imports from A$1000 to around A$400. Pretty much taking away international competition for anything but cheap shit. I suppose that if you don't feel like beating them you can just press the government to change the rules. Gotta love big business.

As a bit of a side note, I'm amazed the number of blokes at work who are spending significant amounts offshore. Tools (battery tools in particular), aswell as car and motorbike parts, musical instruments, video games etc.

[Allen]

I collect wood from all over the place and always buy up when the price is good, like for the last few months.

If you are looking for Ebony or IRW then I can recommend Ashok as well. If you are wanting anything Aussie, then give Tim Spittle or Bob Connor a go. Tim's got a larger selection of unusual stuff and you won't find anyone that has anything negative to say about either of those blokes.

For Sitka then Brent Cole is your man. Engelman go to Graham Hien and lutz you have to go to Shane.

It also helps to buy more than just one piece. Be the type of customer that vendors dream of and they take care of you. I can't tell you the number of times that extras (and really nice stuff) have been thrown into my order out of appreciation, or just shown up on my doorstep unannounced.

[rocket]

I think there might be a couple of extras on their way to your door step now Allen, after that little burst,
Cheers,,,, Rod.

[kiwigeo]

I don't believe all Australian suppliers are guilty though.
You also may have noticed that while not passing on savings with one hand, the major retailers are also trying to taketh away with the other by lobbying for a reduction of tax free imports from A$1000 to around A$400. Pretty much taking away international competition for anything but cheap shit. I suppose that if you don't feel like beating them you can just press the government to change the rules. Gotta love big business.

When some of these bleating big businesses start dishing out a bit of service with the stuff they sell I might have a bit of sympathy for them. It would be nice if you were able to take back the dodgey TV youve just bought from a major dept store to the same store and get an immediate replacement and let THEM sort out getting the buggered set to the manufacturers service centre and let THEM sit for weeks waiting for the thing to get fixed.

[Dominic]

Martin, the ACCC just made a ruling about return policy of goods. I think one of the points made is that it is the responsibiity of the retailer who sold you the goods to replace damaged or faulty goods and not pass on those costs (shoe leather costs we economists call them) to the purchaser. Many retailers have been in breach of the trade practices act in the past and despite what they try to get away with the customer is (almost) always protected.
Here is what the ACCC says on its web site

Consumer guarantees for goods
You automatically receive certain guarantees when you buy, hire or lease goods. If something goes wrong – one of the consumer guarantees is not met - the law gives you rights to insist the seller fixes things.

This implies it is the sellers responsibility to remedy the problem.

Have a look at their site and the new consumer laws.

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.ph ... x=6&Go.y=5

Cheers
Dom

[peter.coombe]

Well I watched Gerry Harvey bleating about on line competition last night on the TV. That I thought was a bit rich when you can't buy anything on line from a Harvey Norman store, and he has had a deliberate policy of not offering on line purchases for many years. Now he has been caught with his pants down and goes bleating to the government for what is effectively a subsidy from the taxpayer. It is a subsidy because it would cost the government more to collect the tax he wants than what they would get in revenue. This sort of rubbish makes me angry because if he got what he wanted we would be paying 10% more for wood and materials we import to make our instruments, much of which is not available in Australia. Does Spruce, Rosewood, Maple grow here? Are mandolin or guitar tuners manufactured here? Not only that, but there is the pain and hassle of dealing with Customs when they hold an item for payment. Believe me I know all about that from when the threshold was around $200. You can't buy much from Stew Mac below $200 when the Aussie $ was below 50c US. So, our costs go up by 10%, that will really make us more competitive, gee great thanks Gerry. I live in a small country town where there is no Harvey Norman store within an hours drive away, so an on line presence would be appreciated. Stuff their go into the store to buy - there ain't no store! Get your act together Gerry, get on line and compete, or shut up.

Sorry, but the prospect of going back to the bad old days of getting slugged every time you import some raw materials gets me a bit hot under the collar.

[kiwigeo]

Martin, the ACCC just made a ruling about return policy of goods. I think one of the points made is that it is the responsibiity of the retailer who sold you the goods to replace damaged or faulty goods and not pass on those costs (shoe leather costs we economists call them) to the purchaser. Many retailers have been in breach of the trade practices act in the past and despite what they try to get away with the customer is (almost) always protected.
Here is what the ACCC says on its web site

Consumer guarantees for goods
You automatically receive certain guarantees when you buy, hire or lease goods. If something goes wrong – one of the consumer guarantees is not met - the law gives you rights to insist the seller fixes things.

All taken on board Dom but to me the wording is that the seller has to "fix" things if an item is defective. So you go from waiting 6 months for a service centre to fix an item to 7 months while the retailer dicks around getting the item to the service centre and dealing with them. I dont see how the situation has improved. If an item is defective the retailer should give you a new one....this is what happens in Japan if you take your defective bog screen TV back to the shop you bought it from. They fall head over heels apologising for selling you a defective item and they give you a new one.

[DarwinStrings]

I agree Martin, you don't go into a shop to buy something that does not work and you don't go into a shop to buy something that they stock on a shelf only to have it unusable for 7 months, grrrrr.

Jim

[J.F. Custom]

Geez... I did not realize Gerry (aka Harvey) Norman was doing so poorly. Perhaps we luthiers could set up some type of support effort for him?

I can't speak for others, but I have to say when I purchase overseas it is not due to saving the 10% GST, especially when you then factor in freight charges. A 10% discount will be more than swallowed by freight for many of our purchases. For me it is usually for one of these reasons -

A: for products unavailable locally - most common;
B: for significant savings ~ say up to 60% on our retail prices for the same product. For example - I know several products I can buy "retail" in USA, pay exorbitant freight on and still have it arrive at my door for less than I can purchase same "wholesale" with a 40% discount here in Australia. When that is the case, you know something is amiss somewhere...
C: occasionally for better and faster service than is often offered here;

Now I appreciate that operating a business here with a shopfront has overheads entailed. It is for 'our' convenience that we can walk into a store and buy something off the shelves to take home the same day. I also like to support local business, so for the sake of the GST and a little additional cost for the 'convenience', I would forego the overseas purchase and buy it here - as I believe many would. Unfortunately, that is not always the case for the reasons outlined above.

Perhaps Gerry would get better traction with punters if we were not hearing the overall profits per annum for his businesses in the multi-millions? I mean really, I feel for him. And the banking executives too while I'm sympathizing. I challenge him to become a luthier for a year with a basic workshop trying to make a living from it to reflect upon whether big business really has it hard due to GST charges on imports. It is a tad hypocritical of him to want to lug his potential customers with another 10% while big business such as his wants further tax reduction and free trade agreements on imports.

The internet and online shopping has changed the way business must be done now. Better to move forward with it than drop anchor in the mud and burn everyone alongside.

*off the high-horse*

On a side note Dom, I think you'll find the wording of that so loose that it would not stand up to challenge. The "sellers responsibilty to fix" does not necessarily mean "them personally", nor "on the spot". And I doubt it is only "replace" but much more likely what all warranties state in "repair or replace at their discretion". Harvey Norman for example is hardly going to have staff who are accomplished technicians in fixing all manor of goods that could potentially be returned. However they have a responsibility to make sure it is fixed for you - be that by hiring a technician to fix it; returning it to the manufacturer to fix; or replacing it - without passing those costs on to you. They are "fixing it for you" in a sense by doing this. Bearing in mind they also have a type of warranty on the given product, from the manufacturer when the goods were purchased wholesale - which may have its own specific contractual conditions they are bound by. Now this is purely on a level with respect to the "laws" involving warranties and consumer protection, however whether they should replace an item up front as a matter of customer service or public relations, for example in Martins case, is certainly open to debate. In fact, you would think they would - I'd be thinking if this was a literal occurrence for Martin, he would as a result be reluctant to purchase from them again so they have ultimately lost out. On mass produced consumer goods you would think the big businesses could wear some of the expense of simply replacing, for the small amount of claims they would receive. They should at least be very open and forthcoming with the customer about why there are any delays in replacing/repairing the faulty item. But then this is not isolated - look at how hard big insurance companies fight tooth and nail to give you as little as possible when you've paid them for years without making a claim... And if enough people make similar claims, they change their policy or up the premiums.

Time to get back to the workshop.

Cheers,

Jeremy.

[Dominic]

Guys, the law is pretty good here and is definately on our side, not on that of retailers. The wording is in laymans terms. By 'fix things' they mean rectify the problem. Not send it away to be fixed for 6 months. You have the right to ask for an immediate refund if they can not replace the item with a new one. It does not matter what the store policy is, what warranty policy is or even if you signed something saying the store is not responsible for faulty goods and will send your item away to the manufacturer to be fixed if it is faulty. Your rights under the act can not be taken away.

The point of the review was that retailers had been conning customers and will try to pass the buck but it is illegal to do so. Don't just complain to your friends or on forums, stick up for your rights. Usually a mention of going to the ACCC will result in a miraculous change in a retailers attitude.

Granted it should not be this hard but retailers have become complacent largely because consumers don't know how to deal with them and get bamboozled by "Store Policy" documents in official looking language. Read this.http://www.accc.gov.au/content/item.pht ... rights.pdf

And this is also from the ACCC site

When can I ask for a refund?
You have a right to seek a refund if the goods you bought:
• are faulty
• are unfit for their purpose (they don’t do what they
are supposed to do)
• do not match the description or sample you
were shown
• have defects that were not obvious or were not
brought to your attention when you bought them.

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/item.pht ... efunds.pdf

Hope this helps guys. Don't let the F#@kers push you around.
Cheers
Dom

[Allen]

Ok, now I'm almost hoping that the LCD TV that we got from Harvey Norman goes for shit so I can take it back and watch them squirm when I demand a replacement or refund.

[Dominic]

Ok, now I'm almost hoping that the LCD TV that we got from Harvey Norman goes for shit so I can take it back and watch them squirm when I demand a replacement or refund.

That's the spirit

[Kim]

Please correct me if I am wrong Dom, but I believe the spanner in the works may be if you get the item home and it works just fine for a week or so and then it shits itself.

Buy it new and if it does not work as claimed straight out of the box, 'then' the DOA rule applies and the retailer 'must' exchange or refund at the customers discretion. But unless something has changed recently, I had always been led to believe that if an item does work, i.e. it at first fulfills the purpose for which it was purchased when removed from its packaging, 'then' a week or so later it shits itself, the retailer can argue that they had fulfilled their obligation to you under the consumer act and can legitimately instruct you to take the matter up with the manufacturer???

Clarification of this point from an economist who is aware of consumer rights would be great.

Cheers

Kim

[ProfChris]

Buy it new and if it does not work as claimed straight out of the box, 'then' the DOA rule applies and the retailer 'must' exchange or refund at the customers discretion. But unless something has changed recently, I had always been led to believe that if an item does work, i.e. it at first fulfills the purpose for which it was purchased when removed from its packaging, 'then' a week or so later it shits itself, the retailer can argue that they had fulfilled their obligation to you under the consumer act and can legitimately instruct you to take the matter up with the manufacturer???

I'm an English law professor, but Australian and New Zealand law on this point is the same as English law, and has been since at least the 1920s. We cite your cases and vice versa.

The legal answer is that the goods have to be of the proper quality (i.e. working) and remain so for a "reasonable time" after the sale takes place. You can't put a fixed period on this because it varies for different goods - for a car, months probably, for a carton of cream only a few days.

For consumer durables the UK official guidelines suggest at least 28 days.

Hope this helps. I've always found that standing in the shop and explaining the seller's legal obligations in a carrying voice is sufficient to obtain an immediate refund.

[Dominic]

Hey Kim, ProfChris has it correct, just don't let them pass the buck onto you if I know it was not your fault the item is faulty. Not having the flow of TV services you paid for for the period of time it takes to get sent away and fixed is a breach of the obligation they have to you when they sold the item. Of course they have to be on the lookout for dodgy customers as well so be ready to explain how the item was used in accordance with manufacturers instructions etc. But no harm in pushing as hard as you can by politely but firmly dropping in talk about the ACCC and I know my consumer rights. this should be enough. The ACCC has a wallet sized cards printed with consumer rights available you can carry around with you that you can show to the sales rep. Remember they probably get told to make it your problem at sales school and deal with this every day while consumers just don't have that kind of experience.

So I think the key part of your statement and the crux of the problem is that people are lead to believe such and such. By who? Retailers trying to pass the buck that's who. By becoming informed of your rights and the retailers obligation to provide decent goods we all benefit. I'll see if I can dig up some more technical details about where exactly the line is drawn but you can be sure it is a long long way from where retailers tell you it is. Hence the push by the ACCC. They are on our side.

Cheers Dom

[Kim]

Thanks Dom and Chris, much appreciated.

Cheers

Kim

[kiwigeo]

I have only one question for the likes of Gerry Harvey........what am I getting for the extra I pay buying goods from your flipping stores???? The spotty faced sales people don't know a thing about the products they're selling, they treat you like a leper when you have to claim on the warranty and in general service is average at best.

This is all a long overdue wake up call for Australia's retail industry.....START SUPPLYING SOME SERVICE!!!!!!

[DarwinStrings]

I have been meaning to buy Wagner safe T planer for a while and recently came up with a good use for one. As always I searched Australia first and the best I could come up with was about $120au (maybe you could find it cheaper here but I could not). So I headed for Stewy Mac and bought one for $55, same product. Even if I had to pay GST on a import I still would have bought it there.

Jim

[vandenboom]

I have been meaning to buy Wagner safe T planer for a while and recently came up with a good use for one. As always I searched Australia first and the best I could come up with was about $120au (maybe you could find it cheaper here but I could not). So I headed for Stewy Mac and bought one for $55, same product. Even if I had to pay GST on a import I still would have bought it there.

Jim

Yes Jim - I bought one of these from Carbatec when I started 6 years ago and shake my head every time I see the price in the Stewmac catalogue!!
Frank