Factory machined or Handcrafted?

[J.F. Custom]

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"Originally Posted on:Sun Feb 07, 2010"


Hi All,

Mods - I originally posted this in the Gallery section, however thought I'd post it here too as I'm interested to see what other minds think on this subject.

I just decided to check out Mr 'Jim' Olsens web page for some inspiration. First time I've seen his work and there is, some truly inspiring stuff on there - including some of the woods he has come across, holy cow.

However, I read the line "...makes 40+ guitars a year..." and thought how the? So I looked around the site a bit more. I didn't realize how mechanized his building process was, had anyone else?

Don't get me wrong, the guy can obviously craft and the results are bloody impressive - even if the bling is not for everyone. But having a $100'000 dollar CNC and a $???thousand dollar laser cutter at your disposal in your home workshop would be a big help to doing some of the work he is achieving. For example - the 'V' heel at the back of the headstock is all CNC'd. The inlay pieces are all laser cut and the cavities to accept them all CNC cut. The rosette pieces are also all laser cut as is the soundhole and even the soundboard outline. That's just to name a few. This is not sour grapes, each to their own and designing this stuff on the computer is a difficult skill in itself.

For me, I guess this begs the question, what constitutes a 'factory' guitar to a 'handcrafted' one? Output? Value? Quality of components? Amount of actual handwork as opposed to machined components and machine assembly? It remains to be seen just what is hand done on these instruments. Assumably, he still individually voices each guitar?

What do others think? Where do the lines get drawn?

Incidentally Tim - your She-Oak is apparently a "Rare Tasmanian" timber. Might want to clarify that for him and your home state...

Jeremy.

[Allen]

I was just going to post your question here Jeremy as I think it's a good one and worth discussion.

I hadn't looked at that web site in ages and apparently hadn't explored it all that well back when I did see it.

There are some really great ideas for jigs and fixtures if anyone is looking at doing the same models with little to no modification to their design. And his set up certainly allows the most precise building I've seen from a one (?) man shop.

Cranking out 40 guitars a month though surely necessitate a production line type of assembly. He must be a very efficient builder even so. I guess to my mind he's crossed the line from hand built to "boutique factory" build, where you can pretty much order and receive anything you want.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with that, and in fact would love to be in that position to have all that tooling, but more importantly the sales to move all those guitars off of the shelves.

[J.F. Custom]

Allen, I think it is 40+ guitars a year, not a month but this is probably what you meant to type anyhow - still a heck of a lot!

I think in his gallery I saw that he specifically mentioned when he had built the guitar personally which suggests he may have helpers for perhaps the more 'run of the mill' models as opposed to 'anniversary' models etc.

There are certainly jigs for everything and they are well made and thought out. Ode to having even a quarter of them. Would go a long way to increasing the production speed whilst maintaining accuracy and precision.

Finally, agreed. I'd love to be in that position also though how mechanised I would go remains to be seen. I simply love the hand processes so much - flaws and all. Perhaps some of the more time efficient processed would be nice - such as reducing the bulk of an archtop guitars waste down to a point where it could be finished and tuned by hand. Where does it start and stop though? We are all using jigs and power tools after all - not like they used to. With the price of small CNC's these days - is it just another power tool in the arsenal? Each individual I'm sure will have their own view.

Perhaps 'Boutique Factory' is an apt description. Certainly when I question 'factory' verse 'handcraft' I'm not demeaning the work. They are obviously incredibly high quality 'factory' instruments - just as there are plenty of very poor 'handcrafted' ones!

Jeremy

[Allen]

Yep, typo and meant the 40 a year.

Although I didn't see anywhere that he mentions voicing tops or back, after looking at all the pictures and comments to go with them, I suspect that the back braces are cut and shaped to standard dimensions that he's found works for his style, and I'm only taking an educated guess that he must do something similar for the tops, but then voices them after glue up. After all, with workmanship like that, I cant imagine that he'd leave such a crucial step to chance.

[Dave White]

Allen wrote:
Yep, typo and meant the 40 a year.

Although I didn't see anywhere that he mentions voicing tops or back, after looking at all the pictures and comments to go with them, I suspect that the back braces are cut and shaped to standard dimensions that he's found works for his style, and I'm only taking an educated guess that he must do something similar for the tops, but then voices them after glue up. After all, with workmanship like that, I cant imagine that he'd leave such a crucial step to chance.

Allen,

Do you think the people on his waiting list that pay wheelbarrows full of dollars could:

a) Tell if they got a dud one or

b) Admit it if they did

I've only ever played one Olsen about 15 years ago - they had it in a shop just off Denmark Street in London near where I used to work and when they twigged that I could play and knew about acoustic guitars they brought it out of it's "shrine" and let me play it (I was playing a bottom of the range Taylor 312 sitka/sapele in the shop at the time). I bought the guitar I prefered - stupid me, I should have bought the Olson as even though it was silly money then it would fetch even sillier money now. I was always crap at investments

Mind you - I've still got that Taylor

[Steve]

Phew...philosophy.

I guess many of the workshops I have seen on the forum including mine are like little factories, we tool up, run certain operations at particular machines or stations and sure we may be one man operations but does a factory need more than one person to operate it.

CNC, nice tool really, I considered a small one at one point in time, enough to carve necks, bridges, inlay and electric guitar bodies at around $8000. I didn't buy it in the end cause I started to think, what will be left for me to do, assembly, set ups and finishing. I like the shaping carving trimming operations. Also a CNC would not help with repairs much and that is where I would really like a bit of a hand. Getting a CNC to repair some of these broken headstocks sounds difficult.

A power tool can easily be considered a hand tool as it is guided by hand. A simple lever can be described as a machine as can a hand plane but a CNC, well that is computer numerically controlled and would be difficult to call it a hand tool. No doubt though, you can build a high quality guitar with a CNC machine.

I guess your question, factory made or hand crafted is a difficult one, you could certainly build a handcrafted guitar in a factory setting, all parts being hand crafted at different stations by different people, finally assembled as a handcrafted instrument. To try to define something built by CNC machine as handcrafted is pushing the boundaries of the language.

Jim

Life is good when I only have to think about wood.

Oh and here is a picture to offset my headache
img~

[DarwinStrings]

Phew...philosophy.

I guess many of the workshops I have seen on the forum including mine are like little factories, we tool up, run certain operations at particular machines or stations and sure we may be one man operations but does a factory need more than one person to operate it.

CNC, nice tool really, I considered a small one at one point in time, enough to carve necks, bridges, inlay and electric guitar bodies at around $8000. I didn't buy it in the end cause I started to think, what will be left for me to do, assembly, set ups and finishing. I like the shaping carving trimming operations. Also a CNC would not help with repairs much and that is where I would really like a bit of a hand. Getting a CNC to repair some of these broken headstocks sounds difficult.

A power tool can easily be considered a hand tool as it is guided by hand. A simple lever can be described as a machine as can a hand plane but a CNC, well that is computer numerically controlled and would be difficult to call it a hand tool. No doubt though, you can build a high quality guitar with a CNC machine.

I guess your question, factory made or hand crafted is a difficult one, you could certainly build a handcrafted guitar in a factory setting, all parts being hand crafted at different stations by different people, finally assembled as a handcrafted instrument. To try to define something built by CNC machine as handcrafted is pushing the boundaries of the language.

Jim

Life is good when I only have to think about wood.

Oh and here is a picture to offset my headache
img~

[sebastiaan56]

Messier and messier methinks.

I was made aware recently of software that is almost universally used now by recording engineers to ensure that the notes that singers hit are spot on pitch. To me there is something deceitful about not declaring that such software has been used to enhance the sound but then again its only really in food that all of the ingredients and their origin has to be declared. Terms like handmade are regulated in food but machinery still makes most of these products. Handmade is part of Jim Olsen's pitch but there is no legal definition, so in my humble world the term is meaningless. He certainly has mojo and the price tag to go with it. If he creates a market for boutique instruments and others can prosper in his wake then that is a good thing.

[Taffy Evans]

Hi all, interesting subject. For me I am not in this game to try to achieve volume, to push through guitars, mandolins or whatever, as fast as possible. For me it's the challenge, the creativity and the joy of having a win over difficult tasks.

When I deliver an instrument, take the customers money and have them ask did you carve that or inlay that, wow! I'd hate to have to say no my computer or machine did it. I don't think they would like to hear that. I wouldn't.
My customer group are not rich, they are normally saving the money while I'm building their guitar I'm sure, but I get the impression that when they get their pride and joy they want to hear that for the most part it was handcrafted.

I give a CD with the guitar of building process shown in a slide show of photo's so they can see that the hand work out-ways the machine work.

I have just delivered a solid body guitar to a customer, it's not a lot different from what was hanging on the shop wall we was in, but he ran his hands over the curves and down the neck, and uttered "Wow". I think he felt special as he had a guitar custom made for him and even the machine work at least had my hands in play.

And anyway I could have carved the neck and possibly made the whole guitar by the time I had set up the CNC procedure.

The guitar mentioned above:
img~

[HiString]

Seb,

Pitch correction has been around for quite a long time now both in recording and live performance environments. Similarly, in recording, it is now commonplace to correct timing issues until the human element disappears, in both live and recording situations "real" drums are only triggering sampled sounds, etc., etc., and let's not get into miming .

Back to the original issue............I've had numerous "arguments" on drum buildings forums as to the difference between building a drum (ie: laying up individual plies/veneers in a mould) and/or assembling a drum, where you purchase a shell from Keller and the hardware from one of the many suppliers and put it all together. Many "assemblers" like to consider themselves "builders".

[SuperDave]

Wow that laser cutter looks like fun =)

Definitely a boutique factory concept going on here. Kindof like fender custom shop i guess with made to order guitars, that can be customised.

My own opinion is that I like to work with the wood by hand as it is a hobby for me. I can see that if you were building 40+ guitars a year that this kind of processing would become attractive. But i don't think you can really call it hand built.

-Super Dave

[highfieldtonewerks]

Production guitars vs handmade guitars... we will do our best to spend only the shortest time possible on the proverbial soapbox.

CAVEAT: We build mostly Classics and Flamencos and will return to the solid-body game as soon as our CNC guy on the Big Island is back up and running - something about fried controller PCBs. So we do work on both sides of the fence.

A few thoughts:

- The goal of the production guitar builder is to automate as much of the process as possible and to build to exacting specs in repeatable steps a la Henry Ford.

- The goal of the handmade guitar builder is to choose the best materials possible (understanding that these materials vary greatly from piece to piece), to work these materials in as elegant a manner as possible, then to assemble, finish, and deliver a truly unique piece that he/she has done his/her best to take to its ultimate state of tonality and playability.

Simply stated, there are two camps out there:

- Homogenized guitars with a focus based on repeatable steps with little allowance for the variation in individual components tonal "personalities". AKA building to the lowest common denominator.

AND

- Individual, unique guitars with which the builder has intimate knowledge of the tonal properties of each component and the amalgamated whole.


IOHO, neither camp stands ahead of the other as they are apples and oranges. Not even close to being the same thing, although the product may look similar in the end.

We spent many years in MI retail in Southern California before skipping across to the correct side of the equator. From the early 80s right on through to the turn of the century we saw the quality/workmanship of production instruments increase exponentially while the tonal characteristics slid some.

To draft an analogy, take a look at Yellowtail or Carlton Draught (production wine/beer) vs. Henschke or Little Creatures (hand crafted wine/beer). In the end people drink what they like - or more likely, what they have the opportunity to be exposed to and then decided they like.

If any of us have been around long enough to have had the opportunity to annoy our local MI retailer over the years by playing guitar after guitar over time, do we find that fewer and fewer production guitars have some "magic" to them? We, here, certainly feel that way. Play a pre-CBS Strat or Tele vs. today's American Standard. Or to bring it close to home, play a Maton from when Billy was alive and one of today's pieces. They are not even in the same league. They are good guitars, no doubt... but different.

If one wants to have an interesting read on this argument, have a squizz at Ervin Somogyi's article on the subject. Here is a link: http://www.esomogyi.com/handmade.html.

Stepping down from the pulpit now. And the congregation said... AMEN, nick off Riggsy.

[seeaxe]

Another great discussion!!!!

When I first looked at the tiger inlay I had just been struggling with a few paltry bits of paua my latest creation and the first thought into my head was "He didnt do that by hand"

You can argue any way you like, I especially like Toejams word's, re machine versus hand. Technically, a hand kit the keys that drove the CNC, its just a very sophisticated adze! So if you were going to be super pure about the hand built stuff then what tools would you allow? Fingernails?

I really liked Taffy's idea giving an owner the building of the guitar on a CD - what a great idea! Does anyone else do that? Beautiful guitar by the way Taffy.

My view is that the way the guitar is actually built probably means more to the average builder on this forum, than to the prospective clients. From what I read, they are labours of love and most would not get the same enjoyment out having to churn out 4+ guitars a month to make the payments on a fancy CNC machine.

So good luck to Jim Olsen and his stellar guitars, I think they are probably not "hand built" in the sense that I think of it. From what I have seen on this forum, I suspect some of you could do just as well or better, but just not at that rate. And how do they sound?? - good enough for James Taylor apparently, so probably OK!

I would still rather build something myself, imperfect and un-Olsen like as will be, than pay that kind of money (if I had it) for one of his. They are pretty awesome, none the less!!.

Again, great discussion

Cheers

Richard

[Allen]

Would you admit that the guitar you just dropped $45 big ones on doesn't sound all that great compared to a $2,500 one.....No way, and really it doesn't matter one bit does it. If you are happy with your purchase, no matter for what reason, then it's really the only thing that matters to the purchaser.

How that instrument got to that point of perfection, or less than is really far down the list for the vast majority of purchasers I suspect.

The folks here all are building primarily for the sheer love of the craft, and the frustrations and moments of joy that it brings us. For me it's a creative outlet that I'd sorely miss if it came to the point where I couldn't continue building.

I see a CNC and laser machine as a means of bringing some of the tasks to the point of well....computerised perfection. In some ways it would be a lot of fun to have one on hand just to see what could be accomplished, but I do fear that it would also become so "Old Hat" that the excitement would be gone and it could very well be something that I dread simply because it has removed that creativity and joy of making something by hand that I enjoy so much.

I just can't see myself getting that little bit of a thrill when someone asks me if I made that and how in the world did I do such a neat job when I knew that a computer controlled device did the lions share.

Still, I'd find a spot for both the Fadal and the laser cutter if they fell off a truck in front of the shop.

[Stu]

I found Jim's website to be a great source of inspiration on many levels.

Firstly to the point that Jim started out building typically the way most of us build a guitar now (by hand) and has used not just his building talents from the very beginning but also a savvy business brain to find a market and also pick up computer cad programming and learn about engineering his own well thought out systems that increase work flow and aid in producing the perfect result time and time again.
Yes, there is that arguement that they are not totally hand built anymore as they used to be, but I see the shift to bigger machinery and laser/cnc aided build technology as a neccessity for one person to increase the volume of production without increasing staff.
I admire someone who is able to orchestrate a build process so well as much as the actual guitars being built.

And as for the sound? Who knows, we're only able to judge by pics.
I'd be happy with one tenth the price of one of his babies.

[Runn3r]

J.F. Custom wrote:
Hi All,

Mods - I originally posted this in the Gallery section, however thought I'd post it here too as I'm interested to see what other minds think on this subject.

I just decided to check out Mr 'Jim' Olsens web page for some inspiration. First time I've seen his work and there is, some truly inspiring stuff on there - including some of the woods he has come across, holy cow. Shocked

However, I read the line "...makes 40+ guitars a year..." and thought how the? So I looked around the site a bit more. I didn't realize how mechanized his building process was, had anyone else?

Don't get me wrong, the guy can obviously craft and the results are bloody impressive - even if the bling is not for everyone. But having a $100'000 dollar CNC and a $???thousand dollar laser cutter at your disposal in your home workshop would be a big help to doing some of the work he is achieving. For example - the 'V' heel at the back of the headstock is all CNC'd. The inlay pieces are all laser cut and the cavities to accept them all CNC cut. The rosette pieces are also all laser cut as is the soundhole and even the soundboard outline. That's just to name a few. This is not sour grapes, each to their own and designing this stuff on the computer is a difficult skill in itself.

For me, I guess this begs the question, what constitutes a 'factory' guitar to a 'handcrafted' one? Output? Value? Quality of components? Amount of actual handwork as opposed to machined components and machine assembly? It remains to be seen just what is hand done on these instruments. Assumably, he still individually voices each guitar?

What do others think? Where do the lines get drawn?

Incidentally Tim - your She-Oak is apparently a "Rare Tasmanian" timber. Might want to clarify that for him and your home state...

Jeremy.

a 'factory' guitar is one tht is easily reproducible and available in mass quantities...to be used by da unwashed masses....

a 'handmade guitar' otoh promises some exclusivity by being rarer in numbers and some association with a reputation ...it is also less easily reproducible ...to be used only by players with the highest refinement and discernment for good taste....

i suspect the main issue here is with the traditional 'markers' of 'handmade guitar quality' [code for ...really exclusive,rare guitar]

things like ornate inlays, and precise/exact machining USED to be the province of the more skilled craftsmen until the cnc machine came along that would do even more ornate inlays than the best human hand and even more precise machining ...

so ...now when one looks at an incredibly ornate inlay it is actually no guarantee of exclusivity since it can be easily reproducible with the cnc machine

the value of ornate inlay has thus been diminished and no longer holds as much value as in the past in signifying an instrument to be of superior 'handmade quality' (code for EXCLUSIVENESS)

it is no different to many traditional skills in everyworkplace being replaced by the computer and the people who used to trade on those outdated skills having their 'worth' diminished as a result

but ...'exclusiveness' will remain as one of the primary factors in achieving maximal premium value for any product...always have and always will imo

it just changes form and 'markers' due to technological changes




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