I posted this over on the OLF, but lets see what you guys think. Craig L, you are a piano tuner, right? I bet you could enlighten us a bit on this.
Click on this link:
http://www.truetemperament.com/
Does anyone have any experience with this system? My first thoughts were that it sure looks like a whole lot of work to install the frets like that, and I have a feeling different string gauges and different heights will throw the system off, and I’m not sure I could get used to bending strings on these frets, but what do I know.
The people behind the concept (Swedes, of all things! Sorry, Lars...) make some tall claims: “With a revolutionary new approach to the design of the guitar's fretboard, True Temperament delivers an accuracy of fret scaling never before achieved in the history of the guitar. Genuine innovation, and a radical new fretting technique, make it possible to accurately implement any target temperament on the guitar, while retaining full playability.â€
True Temperament?
True Temperament?
Arnt Rian,
Norway
Norway
I've never seen anything like this and haven't an opinion on whether it works or not. I believe that it does play in tune as they claim. It would be too easy to disprove it, so I would take their word for that. I do however hate the way it looks. 
I think that our ears have become accustomed to hearing a guitar sound like, well...a guitar. With all its "flaws", so this to me seems more like a marketing innovation to set them apart from the rest of the crowd rather than being something really useful.
I think that our ears have become accustomed to hearing a guitar sound like, well...a guitar. With all its "flaws", so this to me seems more like a marketing innovation to set them apart from the rest of the crowd rather than being something really useful.
Have you ever listened to your favorite guitarist ,and thought afterwards,,,,,Geez , I wish he'd had it in tune ! . No , either have I !
The standard guitar intonation isn't perfect in design. It is a compromise for ease in playing and manufacture. Most experienced guitarists tend to PLAY them in tune ,albeit subconciously most of the time.
Pianos strings are not fretted, so this isn't an issue. Each note has it's own open string/s, so are able to be tuned to a precise setting.This is normally an equal temperament scale , which in itself , is not perfect , but rather , tolerable to the human ear. 4th's and 5th's have a beat of around one per second , where as the thirds and 6th's have faster beats sounding like a pleasing vibrato. A modern compromise !
I note the curved fret crowd also mention " meantone temperament". From what I read there, I don't think they fully understand what "meantone actually is. I once tuned an early Broadwood to "meantone temperament",at our University for the students to experience how those early compositions (should) sound.Surprisingly the tuning wasn't popular at all, and the piano was played very little. "Meantone " , is where the 4th's and 5th's are tuned to be beatless , at the expence of one note in the scale which suffers as a dischord .This dischord was often used to dramatic affect in some of these early compositions , which is lost when played on an instrument tuned to "equal temperament
As a guitar is fretted , and thereby sharpened , it depends on the players touch , as to how sharp it is being pulled. Action height , and string dimensions also come into play. There are just so many variables here , I doubt any fretting system would have the intonation thing covered completely ( Buzz Feiten included). Part of the guitar's sound or charm encompass all these imperfections giving it it's uniqueness and sound we all enjoy so much.
When Elton John's piano has been tuned , Elton will slip in and drop the pitch on one of the unison strings on each note , to give him his unique sound , so, is a little out of tune all that bad ? Works for him ! much to the horror of the Piano tuner I might add ! . I must say though , that there is nothing quite like a well tuned concert Steinway. They are Awesome .! Enough to make your hair stand on end !
I compensate the nut by moving it slightly forward , and of course , compensate the saddle . This ,to me , is as close as is required for guitar. A compromise !
The curved fret thing is probably the result of someone discovering the intonation discrepancies on guitar , and thinking they have resolved the whole issue . ( Not ) It's certainly not a new idea and has been around for decades . Can't see it ever " Taking off" . Easy refret huh !
Cheers , Craig Lawrence
The standard guitar intonation isn't perfect in design. It is a compromise for ease in playing and manufacture. Most experienced guitarists tend to PLAY them in tune ,albeit subconciously most of the time.
Pianos strings are not fretted, so this isn't an issue. Each note has it's own open string/s, so are able to be tuned to a precise setting.This is normally an equal temperament scale , which in itself , is not perfect , but rather , tolerable to the human ear. 4th's and 5th's have a beat of around one per second , where as the thirds and 6th's have faster beats sounding like a pleasing vibrato. A modern compromise !
I note the curved fret crowd also mention " meantone temperament". From what I read there, I don't think they fully understand what "meantone actually is. I once tuned an early Broadwood to "meantone temperament",at our University for the students to experience how those early compositions (should) sound.Surprisingly the tuning wasn't popular at all, and the piano was played very little. "Meantone " , is where the 4th's and 5th's are tuned to be beatless , at the expence of one note in the scale which suffers as a dischord .This dischord was often used to dramatic affect in some of these early compositions , which is lost when played on an instrument tuned to "equal temperament
As a guitar is fretted , and thereby sharpened , it depends on the players touch , as to how sharp it is being pulled. Action height , and string dimensions also come into play. There are just so many variables here , I doubt any fretting system would have the intonation thing covered completely ( Buzz Feiten included). Part of the guitar's sound or charm encompass all these imperfections giving it it's uniqueness and sound we all enjoy so much.
When Elton John's piano has been tuned , Elton will slip in and drop the pitch on one of the unison strings on each note , to give him his unique sound , so, is a little out of tune all that bad ? Works for him ! much to the horror of the Piano tuner I might add ! . I must say though , that there is nothing quite like a well tuned concert Steinway. They are Awesome .! Enough to make your hair stand on end !
I compensate the nut by moving it slightly forward , and of course , compensate the saddle . This ,to me , is as close as is required for guitar. A compromise !
The curved fret thing is probably the result of someone discovering the intonation discrepancies on guitar , and thinking they have resolved the whole issue . ( Not ) It's certainly not a new idea and has been around for decades . Can't see it ever " Taking off" . Easy refret huh !
Cheers , Craig Lawrence
Last edited by Craig on Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If youve got fingers like ET then it should be a breeze to play.
I recall an article in one of my GAL Big Red Books with a similar idea but the fretboard had seperate short frets for each string which would make string bending impossible.
Even on the guitar in the link string bending is going to be a challenge.
My personal opinion..is it really worth the extra effort?? Is it micrometering the brick?
Cheers Martin
I recall an article in one of my GAL Big Red Books with a similar idea but the fretboard had seperate short frets for each string which would make string bending impossible.
Even on the guitar in the link string bending is going to be a challenge.
My personal opinion..is it really worth the extra effort?? Is it micrometering the brick?
Cheers Martin
You got that right! My friend took me over to a neighbors and they had a concert Steinway set up in the living room, The thing seemed huge! I thought all pianos were the same size. The sound of that thing was awesome!I must say though , that there is nothing quite like a well tuned concert Steinway. They are Awesome! Enough to make your hair stand on end !
Never forgot that experience!
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sebastiaan56
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From the "Meantones Blues" page "Meantone Blues is not intended for use together with instruments in other temperaments." doesnt strike me as being that useful if indeed you play with other instruments, unless Bass necks and Wurlitzers can adopt the tuning........ Good players can bend strings to emulate the tuning anyway.
Good gimmick though. I have heard some of the Bach reinterpreted with the "Bach" intonation, it sounds really nice and I can understand why it has been pursued. Im yet to purchase a recording and really listen though.
Sebastiaan
Good gimmick though. I have heard some of the Bach reinterpreted with the "Bach" intonation, it sounds really nice and I can understand why it has been pursued. Im yet to purchase a recording and really listen though.
Sebastiaan
I think Craig hit that nail straight on the head! There are no perfect solutions. In the end, the guitars we love sound awesome!
I noticed that when I use alternate tunnings that go deep (rarely down to B but many in C) I much prefer the overall fretted chord if the lower string is a touch flat and the higher string is a touch sharp.
This is much like 'stretching' the tunning on a piano, if I'm not mistaken. If you were to tune all strings to the exact pitch, fretted chords (especially involving low and high pitch) would sound dissonant... Craig, am I just blowing smoke out of my ass here?
Imagine refretting one of those monstrosities!!!! No thanks!
I noticed that when I use alternate tunnings that go deep (rarely down to B but many in C) I much prefer the overall fretted chord if the lower string is a touch flat and the higher string is a touch sharp.
This is much like 'stretching' the tunning on a piano, if I'm not mistaken. If you were to tune all strings to the exact pitch, fretted chords (especially involving low and high pitch) would sound dissonant... Craig, am I just blowing smoke out of my ass here?
Imagine refretting one of those monstrosities!!!! No thanks!
'Hunting sober is like ...fishing...sober'
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sebastiaan56
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Hi Hesh,
Was that a sacrifice to the great "True Tempramentius" the ancient god of good vibes.........., glad you did it with Stewmac kit.....
Hi Alain,
In my Whistle and Flute building experience I found that the best way to get an instrument to sound as if it is in tune was to sharpen the whole thing about 10 points. Of course they can be blown around a lot more and this is part of the fun of these instruments but most people are a lot more sensitive to flat than sharp notes. Accompianists often 10 points sharp to help the performer Im told, unfortunately I dont have deifinite pitch so Im probably blowing as well..
Craig, comments please
Sebastiaan
Was that a sacrifice to the great "True Tempramentius" the ancient god of good vibes.........., glad you did it with Stewmac kit.....
Hi Alain,
In my Whistle and Flute building experience I found that the best way to get an instrument to sound as if it is in tune was to sharpen the whole thing about 10 points. Of course they can be blown around a lot more and this is part of the fun of these instruments but most people are a lot more sensitive to flat than sharp notes. Accompianists often 10 points sharp to help the performer Im told, unfortunately I dont have deifinite pitch so Im probably blowing as well..
Craig, comments please
Sebastiaan
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Dave White
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The best way to get a set of bagpipes to play in tune with other instruments is to flatten it slightly . . . with a steamroller
Alain,
If you play with the bottom strings dropped down low then the saddle slope for these strings needs to be more than a lot of makers use as "standard". Even if you play with the 6th string at E then having the 6th string length set where it intonates slightly flat helps a lot - particularly as you capo up the neck, you don't need to re-tune the 6th string. It may just be the way my ears work and if I posted this on the OLF I would probably get shot down for "guitar heresy"
Alain,
If you play with the bottom strings dropped down low then the saddle slope for these strings needs to be more than a lot of makers use as "standard". Even if you play with the 6th string at E then having the 6th string length set where it intonates slightly flat helps a lot - particularly as you capo up the neck, you don't need to re-tune the 6th string. It may just be the way my ears work and if I posted this on the OLF I would probably get shot down for "guitar heresy"
Dave White
[url=http://www.defaoiteguitars.com]De Faoite Stringed Instruments[/url]
[url=http://www.defaoiteguitars.com]De Faoite Stringed Instruments[/url]
1, The number of vibrations of a string is inversely proportional to the length of the string.
2, The pitch of a musical sound is proportional to the number of vibrations per second ; the greater the number of vibrations the higher the pitch.
3, The number of vibrations per second of a string is proportional to the square root of it's tension . That is to say, if a string being stretched with a weight of one Kilo it will give forth a sound one octave lower than the sound it would emit if stretched with a weight of 4 Kilos.
4, The number of vibrations of a string varies inversely as the thickness of the string . So that if there were two strings of the same material and length and subjected to the same tension , and if the diameter of the first is twice the diameter of the second , the first will produce one-half as many vibrations as the second.
5, The number of vibrations per second of a string varies inversely as the square root of it's density . Thus , if one string has four times the density of another , the first will produce one-half as many vibrations as the second
By dropping the pitch of the string ,as in drop tuning,you are breaking the rules , and trying to compensate by adjusting the tension / pitch .
Alain , a full major bar chord on a guitar fretboard spans two full octaves only ,so no need to stretch the tuning . A guitar has only around 4 1/2 octaves total . 82.4 Hz. to 2349.4 Hz. Whereas a piano spans 7 1/2 octaves 27.5 Hz. to 4186 Hz. The human ear percieves these higher registers as being flat when perfectly on pitch and sharp on the lower registers when on their perfect pitch . Adjustments are made to the tuning to make this more tolerable.
Sebastiaan , Flutes often seem to be blown flat . Don't forget the pitch of A440 has never been standardised world wide , with some of my German concert pianists demanding A 442 . Some woodwind come out of the factory at 442 . It's a bloody pain.
Cheers Craig Lawrence
2, The pitch of a musical sound is proportional to the number of vibrations per second ; the greater the number of vibrations the higher the pitch.
3, The number of vibrations per second of a string is proportional to the square root of it's tension . That is to say, if a string being stretched with a weight of one Kilo it will give forth a sound one octave lower than the sound it would emit if stretched with a weight of 4 Kilos.
4, The number of vibrations of a string varies inversely as the thickness of the string . So that if there were two strings of the same material and length and subjected to the same tension , and if the diameter of the first is twice the diameter of the second , the first will produce one-half as many vibrations as the second.
5, The number of vibrations per second of a string varies inversely as the square root of it's density . Thus , if one string has four times the density of another , the first will produce one-half as many vibrations as the second
By dropping the pitch of the string ,as in drop tuning,you are breaking the rules , and trying to compensate by adjusting the tension / pitch .
Alain , a full major bar chord on a guitar fretboard spans two full octaves only ,so no need to stretch the tuning . A guitar has only around 4 1/2 octaves total . 82.4 Hz. to 2349.4 Hz. Whereas a piano spans 7 1/2 octaves 27.5 Hz. to 4186 Hz. The human ear percieves these higher registers as being flat when perfectly on pitch and sharp on the lower registers when on their perfect pitch . Adjustments are made to the tuning to make this more tolerable.
Sebastiaan , Flutes often seem to be blown flat . Don't forget the pitch of A440 has never been standardised world wide , with some of my German concert pianists demanding A 442 . Some woodwind come out of the factory at 442 . It's a bloody pain.
Cheers Craig Lawrence
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Ron Wisdom
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