Bending with Titebond 2 or 3

[Craig]

I'm about to bend some binding and intend glueing the side purfling before hand.

Concerned about delamination , I just purchased some Titebond 3 for the job after reading a recent thread on the topic here on our forum recommending this. It's a light brown in colour and doesn't seem to dry to quite the same hardness as Titebond original.

Have I purchased the right stuff ? , or should it have been Titebond 2 ?

[kiwigeo]

I glued up some purfs to some binding recently using Titebond 3. Even then I applied a bare minimum of heat to get them bent and did it on my bending iron rather than with the blanket.

[Dennis Leahy]

Titebond III is what I have used, as it supposedly handles heat and water longer than TB original (I) or II. Worked fine. Yeah, I don't think it ever dries totally brittle, but for veneers bonded to bindings, it shouldn't matter (no stress to cause creep.)

Dennis

[Craig]

Thanks Martin and Dennis , That's good news

[kiwigeo]

I used as little moisture as possible while bending....bindings were rosewood so didnt need much anyway.

Cheers Martin

[Rick Turner]

I guess if you don't mind a rubbery damper glued around the top of your instruments it's just fine...

A thought...

[Craig]

I guess if you don't mind a rubbery damper glued around the top of your instruments it's just fine...

A thought...

bugger you Rick ! Now you've got me thinking..

..... It is a thought though

My test piece of glue now appears a bit harder( using the highly technical fingernail test ) but not quite as hard as 'Original" . I wouldn't describe it as rubber though .

Considering the amount that will coat a veneer , I wonder if that's verging on being a little too anal. ( aww geez , no offence Rick ). The soundboard won't contact the stuff. . I'm only laminating the side purfling

The sides purfling would have 2 mm. deep glue line ( width of binding with the preglued purfling ) , but also remembering that the sides are glued with liners which directly couple to the top which kind of bypasses the titebond 3 ....... I'm just thinking out loud here

Rick mate ,, ,,,,You're not having me on are ya mate ? I'm a bloody sucker for these sort of things . Anyone else have a view on this ? Is there an alternative ,, apart from not laminating the side purfling. ? I don't like the idea of C.A.

The main reason I'm doing the laminated binding /side purfling is so I don't end up with an awkward mess trying to get the side purfling in place as a separate line, as well as handling the top purflingS . I think we've all been there . You need to be a bloody octopus Those side purfs never seem to like the waist area do they

[Allen]

Craig, I've done quite a few different methods.

I've use both Titebond Original and Hide Glue for attaching purling laminations. Bending on the iron and with the blanket. As well as gluing in the octopus of all the separate veneers and binding strips all in one go with both Titebond and hide glue.

In all cases each method worked without any problems other than wrestling with the octopus. That worked, but it was very difficult so it's not my first choice now.

The only time I've had problems with purflings delaminating while bending is on binding strips that I've pre-purchased elsewhere, and not made myself. I've go no idea what glue that they've used, but I never buy them pre-made now.

My first choice is to use Hide glue. No moisture to bend, or very. very little
and use the iron as I can see and feel what is happening.

[J.F. Custom]

Hi Craig,

I'm not sure Rick was 'having you on', but I don't think you are mislead in your own thoughts either.

Rick's thought is actually very good to me in that it keeps us from taking anything for granted and to analyze each step and material in the building process. Each part adds up to the whole picture. If you were to disregard many such choices, possibly they would add up to a notable difference.

However, here we are again... Considering this area also lies directly against the linings; I would personally think the effect of using this glue, for this purpose, to be so minimal as to be negligible. This is of course my opinion only and I can't claim to have anything like the experience Rick does. Aside from the benefits of such questioning above though; I would certainly challenge anyone who suggested they could discern the difference between that guitar and another, when there are sooo many more influential factors involved. Is it a big enough piece of the puzzle for you to be concerned about? That is your call.

Other than that, on a personal note; I don't really like T3 full stop. Perhaps it is because I have used T1 for so long I am completely familiar with its feel and properties. But I too feel it does not set as hard, and also 'feels' different to work with - different tack, clamp, dry, sand etc. The benefits it purportedly gives don't weigh up for me over the drawbacks. I've never had any delamination with T1 of any joint. As a side, I have had issues with the LMII glue I tried recently which I found interesting and won't be going back for more.

For what it's worth, cheers,

Jeremy.

[Craig]

Thanks for you views Jeremy . No, In actual fact , I don't for one moment think that Rick was' having me on ' . He did get me thinking though . That's always a good thing and I'm thankful he pointed out an aspect I hadn't thought of . Makes you rethink a process and recheck your plan of attack, so thanks for that Rick . I've said it before , I know , but we are indeed very fortunate to have someone of Rick's calibre here with us on our forum.
Reflecting upon the use of TB3 in this case ,has me thinking any adverse affect would be so negligible it's not worth concerning myself ,, that's if indeed there were an adverse affect in the first place . Considering it's only the side purfling being laminated ( not the top purf) and the fact that the sides are joined to the top via the linings I'm inclined to think there is no issue.
I'm like you Jeremy in that I know and trust TB original . I only purchased TB3 as it's been stated to have a better chance at not delaminating . I think most of us have a distrust when using a product for the first time we haven't bonded with yet ( sorry for the pun ,,,it WAS intentional ! )

Interesting that the only delamination problem you've had Allen was from a bought in laminated binding . One wonders what they use.... Thanks for the input mate

[WaddyT]

I have bent bindings and purflings glued with HHG, Fish Glue, Titebond Original, Elmer's Glue All, LMI White, and Old Brown Glue. I have even watered some of them down when laminating purfling layups, like wheat, etc. They all bend just fine. The only issues I have had were when I tried to glue up too much at one time, i.e., too many layers before clamping up, and the lower layers dried too much. I haven't used it, but I know some who also use, wait for it, ......EPOXY!

The problem with Titebond II and III, as I understand it, is that it will show the glue line under finish. I wouldn't know, as I have never used it.

[Dennis Leahy]

If a mosquito farts in Cairns, does it affect the jellyfish offshore near Perth? YES, it does! Everything adds up, and the effect from that mosquito fart does indeed reverberate through the air approximately 4,500 km, and will both move the ocean with a nano shock wave as well as create an inaudible but measurable sound wave that will - hey wait a minute, can jellyfish hear?

OK, Rick, much as I respect your knowledge, I do believe you are out there in the realm of the indiscernible on this one. I don't think the difference in sound in the guitar whose binding purflings were glued to the binding with Titebond III vs. Titebond I vs. HHG could be detected by even sensitive audio laboratory equipment.

Once I found out that other luthiers were getting good success with Titebond III and silicone heating blankets to do the bending on bindings, I decided to give it a try, and have had no delaminations, even at 325°F (163°C.) Granted, I've only done a few so far (about a dozen), but that's a good start. Like Waddy, I have heard about other glues being used with success, but a bending blanket is probably the harshest test as it cooks the glue for a long time - and still no delaminations.

Even the guys who specifically point to HHG as drying to a harder, more brittle consistency than original Titebond aren't lining up to take a blindfold test and bet their paycheck, where they have to discern the difference in the glues used on soundboard braces. And that's on the soundboard! And, the rims are the 'dead zone' in an acoustical comparison.

So, come on, say it aint so Joe, er I mean Rick. Let us off the hook on this one and declare it is statistically insignificant.

Waddy, I cannot see any glue line movement at all, even under +3.5 reading glasses and a bright light. No shrinkage, no swelling, no glue line showing at all.

Dennis

[Rick Turner]

I'm merely asking questions, not shoving some concept of the truth down anyone's throat. As for me, I choose not to use rubbery glues for building instruments. I don't have any issues building as I do, so for me, Titebond 3 is a solution looking for a problem. Hey, in spite of the evidence that original Titebond has a problem with cold creep, there are literally millions of guitars made with the stuff that seem OK. But I want my guitars to be good for two to three hundred years of use, so I'll constantly question materials and methods of work searching for better.

[Dennis Leahy]

Hi Rick.

What glues and finishes are you using that you believe have a proven track record that will give some sort of guarantee of 2 to 3 centuries of longevity?

{edit} I'm going to rephrase that, because I know nothing has a multi-century guarantee - and because it sounds like I'm wagging a finger at you, which wasn't my intent. Allow me to change my question to: What glues and finishes are you using? With respect to longevity (as well as meeting the criteria that the glue or finish was selected for), what indication do you have that the glues and finishing materials you are using will enhance the longevity of your instruments?

I'm not being a prick, I'm really just wondering, because you seem really sure that Titebond is a bad idea and I think you use at least some epoxies in every guitar as part of the composition of CF. Usually, the "tried and tested true for centuries" adherents are strictly HHG users. Going along with your argument against materials that may not last, I do wonder about cyanoacrylate glues and epoxies.

I know you've been doing this for a long time, so which specific glues do you use in lutherie, and where do you use them?

Dennis

[WaddyT]

Dennis, I was not talking about shrinkage of the glue line. I was talking about the glue taking on a color under finish. For instance, TBIII will show up as a separate line, with it's own color, which may or may not match your color scheme. Same with TBII, though, as I understand it, to a lesser extent.

[Dennis Leahy]

Dennis, I was not talking about shrinkage of the glue line. I was talking about the glue taking on a color under finish. For instance, TBIII will show up as a separate line, with it's own color, which may or may not match your color scheme. Same with TBII, though, as I understand it, to a lesser extent.

Hi Waddy, OK, I see what you're saying, but I wonder if it would ever be an issue at a purfling/binding boundary, because they are almost always (at least every one I have seen) using different woods and usually contrasting - so the glue line (which should be extremely thin, like a few thousandths thick) I would not think to be an issue here.

Now, when matching two pieces of wood that are the same species (like a multi-piece dark Rosewood back, or a Spruce soundboard), then I think the color of the glue line can be an issue, especially if the mating surfaces are not really close to perfect. For example, Titebond does show up as a different color glue line in Spruce soundboard center seams unless the joint is perfect (and maybe HHG has an advantage there.)

I'm a beginning luthier, but not a beginning woodworker, and have had to create thousands of visible glue joints. I would never use or recommend a glue that I felt was inappropriate. For example, my understanding of Titebond II's movement in service (creep and otherwise) would probably keep me from using it on anything in lutherie, but there are places like a headstock veneer for a headstock that will receive binding, or a butt graft, where Titebond II's negative features may be moot. If bindings have purfling veneers pre-glued to them, then it seems like the only job of the glue in between the binding and purfling is to make it through the process of bending. After that, another glue of choice can be used to glue the pre-bent and pre-purfed bindings into the rabbets on the rims. I didn't want Craig, the original poster, to be left with a feeling that Titebond III is a bad choice for the specific task he asked about, I think the acoustic properties of Titebond III in this instance is a red herring, and don't want to add issues with color as a problem if that is not really applicable for this particular situation either.

Dennis

[Rick Turner]

Dennis, I'll write up my list of glues and uses over the weekend, but here's a question for you.

Why on earth would you use Titebond Original when there's another glue...LMI white glue...that is just as convenient to use as Titebond and which, from all we can gather, has significantly lower cold creep factor? You've got two glues that have essentially the same working characteristics, and one seems to be far superior to the other in a very important way once cured. Why the rah-rah for Titebond? Must be the convenience of buying it at the hardware store... That's not good enough for me.

I know that nobody wants to admit that something they've used for years isn't the best, but let's look at what these adhesives are supposed to do and use the very best we can get irrespective of mindless tradition. BTW, I do like mindful tradition...and that's what has led a lot of us back to HHG for many glue joints.

[WaddyT]

I'll certainly agree with Rick on the LMI White. It is brittle in a similar way to HHG and Fish Glue, which I know he doesn't like, but when I did the drying test, the order of brittleness was Fish Glue(most brittle), LMI White, HHG. This was open air drying of glue on a plastic surface, then peeled off and cracked up. The fish glue was like very thin glass, as was the LMI White, except that it would bend slightly before breaking. The hide glue would bend more than either, but broke the same way before you could bend it double. All three were pretty clear in color, but the HHG was the most transparent. The Fish and LMI were both a little cloudy.

[Dennis Leahy]

Dennis, I'll write up my list of glues and uses over the weekend, but here's a question for you.

Why on earth would you use Titebond Original when there's another glue...LMI white glue...that is just as convenient to use as Titebond and which, from all we can gather, has significantly lower cold creep factor? You've got two glues that have essentially the same working characteristics, and one seems to be far superior to the other in a very important way once cured. Why the rah-rah for Titebond? Must be the convenience of buying it at the hardware store... That's not good enough for me.

I know that nobody wants to admit that something they've used for years isn't the best, but let's look at what these adhesives are supposed to do and use the very best we can get irrespective of mindless tradition. BTW, I do like mindful tradition...and that's what has led a lot of us back to HHG for many glue joints.

Thanks, Rick, I look forward to reading your list of glues and their use in lutherie for you.

Just to be clear, I'm not standing on the pulpit preaching for Titebond, especially over LMII white and HHG, for any and every task in lutherie. The indications that I have gotten after reading info from a number of seasoned luthiers is that HHG is probably the one superior glue to use in constructing stringed musical instruments, due to its ability to adhere (very well) to itself, its clear-amber color works well with most woods (quite possibly the best color match for Spruces), it dries very hard, even crystalline, and by all logic that has to be less damping, and it is quite tacky, not slippery, and seems to draw the wood pieces together, and can be reversed with heat (in a temperature range that allows for instrument repair.) Supposedly LMII white comes in second on most luthiers' testing for these criteria.

I am only trying to throw my $0.02 in regarding Titebond III when used in this one specific task: gluing veneers to binding stock, that is then going to be pre-bent as a unit. I have some Titebond III, and the only thing I used it for in lutherie was this one task, for which it seems perfectly suited.

Tim McKnight did a quasi-scientific test of glues, here is a page with his info: Does Glue Hardness Affect the Tone of Musical Instruments

Teeny tiny little things do add up, and at some point do become discernible. However, until someone proves otherwise, I do not believe that the overall timbre or sustain of a guitar could be affected enough by the choice of Titebond I, HHG, or LMII White to be audibly discernible by human ears. So, for me, (even though I see the logic of the hard/crystalling glue), the strongest arguments for choosing HHG are all of the other positive characteristics listed above. I guess I'm just being a stickler and I see the vibration damping argument as somewhere between moot and myth - even on soundboard braces. Even if I were to typically build with HHG, I would have no qualms about building an instrument with Titebond I, or LMII White, for someone that was vegan, for example.

Dennis

[Rick Turner]

Tim's tests pretty much confirm what many of us know from a more empirical perspective. There is still nothing about how vibrations are carried through and across glue joints. Tests on that factor could be conducted using a Lucchi Elasticity Tester, but I don't have one. That would be interesting, to say the least.

[Cleaver]

Dennis,
By now you should have some Uni-bond
If I already had it (as you might) I would chuck the Titebond 3 and use the Uni. Very heat resistant.
I know, I just had some veneered furniture survive a house fire. Extreme heat and dryness followed by extreme moisture. (Fireman's dousing)
1/16" tan oak veneers, still tight, no visible glue line.
Link

[jeffhigh]

Dennis,
Tim Mc Knight's test is unfortunately a pretty flawed one to the point of uselessness, treating glues as if they were casting resins, rather than confining them in a clamped joint.
I have built with titebond original to date, but my current build is using HHG for practical advantages rather than because I believe it will give a sonic advantage.

[J.F. Custom]

Why on earth would you use Titebond Original when there's another glue...LMI white glue...that is just as convenient to use as Titebond and which, from all we can gather, has significantly lower cold creep factor? You've got two glues that have essentially the same working characteristics, and one seems to be far superior to the other in a very important way once cured. Why the rah-rah for Titebond? Must be the convenience of buying it at the hardware store...

Hi Rick.

I seem to differ in opinion here. I am not many luthiers and have not the accumulative or collective experience so I must take your word for it on the general appraisal of LMII's white glue. However, I have only used this recently and was disappointed to say the least. As mentioned in my earlier post, I have never had any joint failure with the use of Titebond original. On the other hand, I have now experienced quite catastrophic joint failure with the LMI white.

Now it is very limited experience I realize. Possibly I have a bad or old batch of glue so I don't write it off completely, however I would be reluctant to try again - it simply does not possess the draw cards to bring me to. I guess to an extent - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. It could be that the timber I was using was particularly difficult and this could also be the cause. It was a local timber called "Gidgee" which is extremely hard and dense at about 1300kg per cubic meter. After the initial failure however, I tested with planed joints; sanded joints; grain raised water wiped joints; and even acetone wiped joints. All failed in a similar manner when flexed - very curious.

So far from preaching the benefits of Titebond for it's availability or other, I recommend it purely from its performance for me over the years. I re-iterate here also, that I am not fond of T3 and again, have no reason to experiment further there. HHG deserves more attention from me however and that will be where any future experimenting lies at this point.

As mentioned in the above post and why, I agree with your line of thinking, but not any specific conclusion - not that you were concluding anything.

I too would be interested to know what glue you use where and why, in all your vast experience. Thanks in advance for this offer.

Cheers,

Jeremy.

[Rick Turner]

Apparently there have been issues in the past with the LMI stuff...a bad batch or a batch that got frozen or something like that, but we've put literally hundreds of guitars together using the LMI glue in a lot of the joints including peghead scarfs which are about the toughest joints to get really right of all...given the amount of end grain that has to accept and hold glue.

I use HHG for all center seams on backs and sides for all acoustic and semi-hollow acoustic electrics. The A/E guitar and bass bodies (my Renaissance line) are otherwise entirely assembled with the LMI white glue other than gluing the centerblock to the top (polyurethane glue for no water) and we've never had a glue joint failure. Ditto the peghead scarfs...we had failures with polyurethane glue, epoxy, and a long time ago with Titebond. Since going to the LMI white glue, the glue lines have become nearly invisible and we've had no glue line failures in hundreds of instruments.

As I said, I'll do a listing of glues and where I use them over the weekend. Bear in mind that a fair amount of experimentation...and yes, some hard earned experience from failures...has gone into this. And that as it is said,
"Your mileage may vary..." Some of my choices are out of a convenience factor...for instance WEST epoxy...I love the metering pumps as opposed to weighing out on a gram scale. But I never compromise utility for convenience.

[jeffhigh]

Bearing in mind that we have no local supplier for LMI glue and mostly import by air mail or the like, chances of damage by freezing would be high I would think