Sound Board

[liam_fnq]

i've had a look on the net and can't find a copy of the photo of the weissenborn i'm talking about.

i have noticed though that it says "style C from 1925"

i'll try to explain about it a little better:

-small body
-twelve fret neck to body join-
-separate, solid, rounded neck with slotted headstock.
- it looks very similar to a martin 0-18 and is designed to be played in the same way.
- it is a "NORMAL" steel string guitar.
-it is not a lap style guitar.
- it is a very elegant, beautiful and super-way-cool looking instrument.

it is designed to be played in the SPANISH style ie. the style that nearly everyone plays ie. on its side, with hand wrapped around the neck. fretting chords with the left hand in standard tuning.

a picture could tell a thousand words.

[/quote]

[liam_fnq]

here's your thousand words





i know this one has no figure but the one in the book i have have light figuring.

once again i'm not suggesting that anyone should use figured wood on a soundboard, only pointing out that was done by weissenborn in 1925 and may have survived 84 years without a major implosion. of course this could be achieved by over bracing. a solution that comes with an obvious downside.
[/img]

[Kim]

Liam, i edited your post by highlighting your links and clicking on the "Img" button. This code tells the forum software to display the link as an image.

As to the early Weissenborn instruments, it is my understanding that most the originals with that strange 'spider' bracing around the waist area of the top did indeed fail over time, and those that survive today only do so due to restorations which address that short coming.

Rick Turner is far better qualified to comment further on this and perhaps he will tune in and enlighten us all to the reality.

Cheers

Kim

[Tigermyrtle]

Hi Bob, Most of the species we were talking about here were from Tasmania Island State of Australia, apart from Australian Red Cedar that is from The big Island of Australia the State of Queensland,
The Blackwood in Tasmania is a close cousin of Koa.
Don't take too much notice of me as according to a couple of the guys here I know nothing.
As for any of the New Zealand species that are suitable as Tone Woods I am sure some one here will help.
Ask for Martin he is a really nice guy.
Regards Bob, Tasmania

I was trying to follow along on this thread to see if I could learn something about woods in NZ. You guys digress a wee bit! My wife and I will be traveling on the South Island for 3-4 weeks in early 10 and it would be great to look for some of these trees that you are talking about. Always fun to see instrument woods on the hoof. In the middle of the thread someone brought up Australian Red Cedar. Here in Hawaii it's called Toon or Tuna. Grows into very large trees from near sea level to about 4,000 ft. elevation. Smells great when used as kerfing, but feels kind of rubbery to be used for any other luthiery purposes, other than my kitchen cabinets for which it looks nice. I'd be interested in hearing the names of any other instrument woods that might grow on South Island so that maybe I can find I.D. info on them. Don't worry, I won't be cuttin' anything! I generally travel with koa sets though and will be looking for some possible trades for interesting stuff! I have heard that I might have trouble bringing wood into NZ, and any thoughts on that are appreciated.Aloha.-Bob

[Kim]

Don't take too much notice of me as according to a couple of the guys here I know nothing.

Bob,

It is not that you know nothing, the problem i have, and i am sure i speak for others here as well, is that you started a thread 'asking' advice about soundboards because by your own admission you have no experience as a luthier, and then, a few post into that same thread your doling out advice, some of which is quite wrong, and some of which comes without any qualification whatsoever from the party who gave it to you. Now, don't you see how a reasonable thinking person could perceived such behavior as nothing but blind face arrogance on your part?

You have made many references over time of your alleged reason for being at the ANZLF is to learn. You have made just as many references regarding your intention to complete your very first instrument. My earlier suggestion to you was that it would best serve you and others on this forum if you were to concentrate your efforts on that outcome and spend less on your habit of back door sprooking and fencing with a foil constructed of nothing but secondhand advice.

If you want some credability in this particular feild of wood work Bob, then grab your tools and start earning it, then maybe you won't attract so much of what you percieve to be rudeness but what the moderators of this forum see as fair warning to others who may not be aware that you have no experience as an instrument repairer or builder.

Regards

Kim

[Rick Turner]

A couple of observations...

Just because there are some interesting vintage guitars with koa tops that still exist, that does not mean that they are the best or worst sounding guitars on the planet, but the higher the degree of figure, the more long term distortion of the top you are likely to see. A plain koa topped instrument is likely to sound fairly similar to a mahogany topped one, that is to say, it could sound quite good...or not. But I do believe that people wanting to use koa or blackwood for guitar tops are people listening with their eyes using lots of wishful thinking. Just ask yourself this, "If I were blind, what timber would I choose for a guitar top?"

Herman Weissenborn's instruments are a perfect example of "the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly". The lap steels sound wonderful; but they're extremely funky on the inside. There's glue squeeze-out everywhere; glue joints often fail as he probably never mixed up fresh glue until the pot ran dry; interior bits and pieces are mismatched like mad; and I've never seen a Weissenborn that did not need fairly extensive repair.

I think it is foolish to slavishly copy vintage instruments without trying to understand their faults as well as their strong points. If you can correct the faults while retaining the sonic and aesthetic features you like, then you've helped move the craft of lutherie forward while celebrating it's past.

[Allen]

A couple of observations...

"If I were blind, what timber would I choose for a guitar top?"

I saw you post this advice some time ago on another forum Rick, and it really didn't make a lot of sense to me at the time but it did stick in the back of my head. It sure does now, and I'm grateful that

[Kim]

If you can correct the faults while retaining the sonic and aesthetic features you like, then you've helped move the craft of lutherie forward while celebrating it's past.

Maybe not what you had in mind Rick, but that's how i feel about the Matey F111 OK, probably not

Cheers

Kim

[Tigermyrtle]

Kim, I admit I posted a few stupid answers without thinking.
And I also commented that I was very tired.
But anyway move on.
As for the thread I started Sound board I am pleased I did as I have learnt a lot from this post from Allen McFarlen, Rick Turner, & some of yours & Bob Geelong reply and this has been a great help and thats what it was all about. As for my first build it is happening but slower than hoped, as work comes first.
As for your Matey F111 excellent workmanship looks great.
Best regard
Bob, Tasmania

Bob,

It is not that you know nothing, the problem i have, and i am sure i speak for others here as well, is that you started a thread 'asking' advice about soundboards because by your own admission you have no experience as a luthier, and then, a few post into that same thread your doling out advice, some of which is quite wrong, and some of which comes without any qualification whatsoever from the party who gave it to you. Now, don't you see how a reasonable thinking person could perceived such behavior as nothing but blind face arrogance on your part?

[Kim]

Indeed we move on.

Thanks for the compliment Bob, i look forward to seeing your weissy build come to light so we can see what you have learned.

Cheers

Kim

[kiwigeo]

Ask for Martin he is a really nice guy.

Martin is a really nice guy????? Bob mate you need to get some sleep.

[Tigermyrtle]

G'Day Martin, I managed to get two hours sleep this afternoon and did I need it.
As for Martin is a really nice guy, credit where credit is due.
I see you in this forum and the woodwork forum giving out lots of good advise.
Best regards
Bob,

Martin is a really nice guy????? Bob mate you need to get some sleep.

[/quote]

[Rick Turner]

I'm wrote a piece for my website on "tone wood"...a kind of hackneyed phrase, but one which should actually have true meaning. Tone woods shape the response of string vibrations in various ways, and to do so, they have to have a blend of characteristics, most of which are really structural and/or essential qualities that do not include appearance...which is, for better or worse, how guitars are often judged. It's late here, and I don't want to go beyond this statement, but do think about the phrase "tone wood", and explore the qualities that are needed for a timber to qualify for that designation to be true...not bullshit.

[Tigermyrtle]

There is no Bullshit in Australia Rick, & that's bullshit.
I will be taking your advice & doing a lot more study internet research Etc.
And I will certainly be buying David Hurd's Book & CD.
Regards
Bob,Tasmania

I'm wrote a piece for my website on "tone wood"...a kind of hackneyed phrase, but one which should actually have true meaning. Tone woods shape the response of string vibrations in various ways, and to do so, they have to have a blend of characteristics, most of which are really structural and/or essential qualities that do not include appearance...which is, for better or worse, how guitars are often judged. It's late here, and I don't want to go beyond this statement, but do think about the phrase "tone wood", and explore the qualities that are needed for a timber to qualify for that designation to be true...not bullshit.

[liam_fnq]

i've accidently posted this here. can admin please move it to a new topic.
sorry.


in another thread i made reference to a spanish style weissenborn.





kim made mention of some fancy spider bracing around the waist.

kim can you or someone else tell me more about this?

maybe some pics.

sounds interesting

cheers. Liam.

[Kim]

Liam,

I don't see an issue in keeping your post here but if you want to start a new topic yourself that is fine.

My reference to "spider bracing" is nothing mystical. It was simply my own description directed at that strangely splayed cluster of finger braces found at the waist area between the legs of the "X" brace on the originals and most available weissy plans. To my mind these fingers just do not make structural scene.

Maybe they have some sonic pursuit but the purpose is lost on me, hence my suggestion earlier in this thread that Rick is far better qualified to comment. Rather than me carrying on trying to explain myself it may serve you better to revisit the attached thread to understand what i am talking about and for you to pick up your inquiries from there..

viewtopic.php?t=1902

Cheers

Kim

[Rick Turner]

It's really easy to get all up in your head about bracing patterns and start seeing things that may not be there. It's also entirely possible that Weissenborn came up with a bracing pattern that works...but came up with it by accident and then stuck with it. Remember that when we're talking about his Hawaiian played instruments with hollow necks, the only person making those before him was the even weirder Chris Knutsen, so what Weissenborn did virtually defines the sound of a lap acoustic guitar.

I see the Weissenborns as being somewhat over-braced in places and underbraced elsewhere. That's not to say they don't work or sound good, it's just an observation based on the next 80 years of lutherie around the world.

Here's one, though...Why not put a side sound port on the treble side of the instrument facing the audience?

How about one with nice Tassie blackwood back and sides, an Adirondack spruce top, an audience side port, a built in tuner, Hipshot D-tuners on the highest and lowest strings, and LED position markers? Maybe try lattice bracing, carbon fiber topped back braces... Yeah, rope binding everywhere, and a D-TAR Wavelength MultiSource pickup (little self promo here...) to finish it off...

[Hesh1956]

Here's one, though...Why not put a side sound port on the treble side of the instrument facing the audience?

Brilliant!

[Rick Turner]

For another related discussion:

http://www.acousticguitar.com/ubbcgi/ul ... 029843;p=1

[Tigermyrtle]

Now that sounds like my kind of instrument Rick, bloody brilliant When are you coming over to teach the build.?
And as I said in another forum once built I will do a youtube Video of me playing live on stage at Wembley stadium with Who.
Now check this link below, is this something like your idea.?
Best regards
Bob,Tasmania
http://www.danielbrauchli.com/


How about one with nice Tassie blackwood back and sides, an Adirondack spruce top, an audience side port, a built in tuner, Hipshot D-tuners on the highest and lowest strings, and LED position markers? Maybe try lattice bracing, carbon fiber topped back braces... Yeah, rope binding everywhere, and a D-TAR Wavelength MultiSource pickup (little self promo here...) to finish it off...[/quote]

[kiwigeo]

And as I said in another forum once built I will do a youtube Video of me playing live on stage at Wembley stadium with Who.

I dont think there'll be enough room on the stage for all the zimmer frames

[Tigermyrtle]

Good one Martin,
Mind is still young, body is too old to Rock & Roll but too young to die.
Cheers Bob,