Somogyi Vid

[J.F. Custom]

Jeremy, I have seen Somogyi's rosettes, and they are exquisitely beautiful - and still think yours is cooler!

Dennis

Dennis - Flattery will get you nowhere... I mean everywhere!

BTW, did I mention that I'm giving you personally and only, 15% off your next custom guitar order from me? I just can't recall if I'd mentioned that or not...

Erm, so thanks anyway, you may lie, but they are kind lies

Ervin is no doubt doing superlative work, I'd love to see it first hand. Fortunately, I've got quite a few years up my sleeve to improve before I reach a similar vintage of my career.

Im think we should have perhaps done a bulk buy deal with Mr S and perhaps cut down on shipping a bit.

Yeah good thinking Martin... Oh, wait a minute - perhaps a little earlier would have been even better thinking. Not that I could have joined in at present. I noted though that you said your total was US $327 ? Does that mean that postage for two books was US $63 ??? That is an impressive figure for a couple of books - must be 'quality' postage. A group buy would have been a good idea indeed.

If anyone else is still considering purchasing these, perhaps we could still do this?

Jeremy.

[Allen]

Only 2 sets at a time, or you'll get slugged by Customs. And those guys have no sense of humor.

[kiwigeo]

Jeremy you are correct with postage..thats USPS air. You could probably get it down by sending books via surface.

A radical idea......setting up a library of books such as Mr S's and making them available to trusted members.

[J.F. Custom]

Allen,

I know the overall $ figure would be enough to interest them (customs) but as far as I'm aware, I don't think there are any duties or taxes due when importing books - free trade? I could be wrong and stand to be corrected but I believe this to be the case. I'm sure they would charge some sort of 'clearance' fee or other but it should be minimal.

Whether or not the money saved on the whole is worth it though is another matter entirely. We don't know for a start what sort of postage costs would be incurred on larger purchases of these for a start.

Martin, interesting idea. You offering up your library to get the ball rolling then? If so, you can put me down #1 on the list for these two tomes unless I get to buy them first Seriously though, every time I lend out my books ends up being when I need to refer to something. Like now, I went to get a book on wiring off the shelf for reference to a few ideas and realized a colleague in another state has it... Time to make a call I think.

Jeremy.

[Allen]

Same as guitar parts Jeremy. Duty free, and exempt as far as the "Free Trade Deal" goes, but from bitter first hand experience, that doesn't stop those bastards at Customs from extracting their pound of flesh just for being so stupid as to attract their attention. Might get lucky, but I'm much more warry now.

[J.F. Custom]

Having been hit up before pretty heavily when it wasn't anticipated, I know what you are talking about, so better safe than sorry.

Thanks for the double heads up Allen - advice heeded.

Jeremy.

[Lillian]

You have a couple of choices when mailing. Flat rate is about $48. The caveat to this is that it has to fit in one of the three flat rate boxes. I don't have the box that books were in, inside of the shipping box or else I'd check it out for you. Hesh if you still have the inner box would you send me the dimensions and I'll see if it will fit in a flat rate box.

Airmail is $68 up to a certain weight, but no issues with box size.

And then there is always a carrier. Don't do it. They aren't worth it. Very expensive and more prone to losing stuff than the post office.

You do not want to send the books media mail. Fran does all the shipping for the bookshop. She has shipped books all around the world. Mostly regular books, but occasionally they are going to a collector who has parted with a pretty penny for them. She will not ship media mail outside of the country even for the cheap paperback books. Takes forever, 1 - 3 months to arrive, if it arrives at all.

[jeffhigh]

Well Somogyi has had the video pulled citing copyright.
All I really got from it was " the guitar is basically an air pump", which I strongly disagree with, and that brazillian rosewood rings well and makes excellent guitars (with the implication that anything else is a compromise but let's just call it "different")

[Kim]

Well Somogyi has had the video pulled citing copyright.

That's fair enough Jeff, didn't you know that Evin never learnt a thing from anyone else. Yep that's right, clever bugger learnt it all by himself from scratch, everything, every ideas, every concepts, all his with no input derived from anyone else on earth. Yep that's Ervin the incredible, what a guy. Why I hear he had not even seen or heard a guitar until after he built his first and it was only the fact that he was born a little late that prevented him from putting a copyright on that concept as well so you ought think urself luck.

I also hear he was an only child

I won't be paying any money to the selfish tosser that's for sure, he and Sylvan should get married.

Cheers

Kim

[Nick]

Hmmmm. Not a fan then Kim?

[Kim]

The problem I have Nick is that regardless of what this bloke would have you believe, he has no doubt added much to his own knowledge base and had many of his questions answered 'freely' by those whom inspired him in this craft and were only to happy to share their knowledge with others.

Don't get me wrong, I respect this blokes work and do not begrudge him making a quid from his books and it becomes pretty obvious given the production quality of that video still available on the tube, which is nothing more than a promo for the books designed to sell the Ervin 'brand' as being unique in the guitar building world and a class above the rest, that he has a lot of money tied up in this.

What gets up my nose here is the timing. He would have been completely aware of the now withdrawn video footage being shot when they ran the interview, so much so that in both parts one and two he played his usual card and revealed nothing but more unanswered questions to the audience. He simply did a little dancing with words and stated the bloody obvious.

Then, a few weeks after the feeding frenzy from the launch of his long anticipated tombs dies down a little, these silly 'bong, bong' "Q" chuckle, chuckle videos turn up. He leave them running on the tube a few days to seed the forums and then, to create the same controversy which gave his courses such exposure on the OLF a few years back, he pulls the bloody things sighting copyright.

Well do it with my brown dog! Does this bloke ever 'give' anything back to the craft which has supported him or is it just hands out for it all. I know it has been argued before by his supporters that he does not really owe the luthier community anything, and that would be a fair enough stand to make if he would quite hanging this bullshit out so he could milk it.

Can someone please let me know if they receive a free set of freak'in steak knives with their book order....baaaah!

Cheers

Kim

[Nick]

Well stated Kim and I can see your point. It does get up my nose(and there's plenty of room!) when the case you state happens. I had an occasion similar at work here a couple of years ago, I do some R&D/prototyping work for one of the 'offshoot' commercial companies that eventuates from research carried out at the Uni I work at. They asked me solve an engineering problem they were having which I duly did only to find out a few months later that they were in the process of patenting the solution I came up with So now I just do the work they give me as long as it comes with a drawing of their design.
I wasn't aware of Ervin Somogyi's history of coming from where most of us start & recieving free advice from people such as yourselves (I still have lots to learn so wouldn't dare include myself in this group) to becoming an authority & copywriting all of his output. He is either as you say or has some greedy marketing grub behind him pulling strings in order to suck every last penny out of the business that is Somogyi.

And don't worry.....when I become a rich and famous Luthier I won't forget where I came from, I'll even let you carry my bags when I jet around the world, as long as you are at least four paces behind me & you can rip the tabs off me beer cans

[Ricardo]

Sounds like a bit of envy going on here or is it tall poppy syndrome?
Why is it that in Australia we like to find fault with those who become very successfull, the negative comments are not very useful they are opinions, we all have opinions, but sometimes we should keep them to ourselves. Yes the books cost money, so do all text books (and they are usually very expensive).
books, like making guitars cost time and money, and like guitars finding buyers requires advertising. If you dont want to buy something, then dont! no one is forcing anything down anyones throat, previous comments are mere opinions to the content of these books.
As a forum if someone thinks the information can be useful to others its good to share that. So in summary, i personaly think the information in the books is useful and that i can benifit from it, the author has a track record for building guitars, is respected for his craft, and to me that carries weight.
Hands up anyone here who has a book on building guitars, Ah everyone. Did the author give these books away for free because he is a good bloke, come on guys live and let live, let the tall poppies be what they are, successful people in their own right.

[Nick]

Not envy on my part Ricardo, I know bugger all about the bloke so haven't built up an opinion to be envious about anything, and it's not in my nature...good luck to the bloke & I will probably buy his books when I feel I can justify the cost (the more knowledge I have from any source, the better equipped I am to build).
I think the point I get from Kim's post (and he's not belittling Somogyi's build craft, at least it doesn't read that way to me) is that he has seen somebody (through Kims years of forum participation) who hasn't minded tapping freely into other people's experiences and knowledge but now has sewn everything up so tightly that to get anything back, you have to pay $.As I say this maybe the marketing advice he has been given so Apologies if this is the case. That's my read of the post as I say and I can understand Kim's attitude (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong Kim).
I see it around the University all the time where people use the resources supplied by their employer to climb to the top of the ladder, claim accolades and awards e.t.c, then when they are asked to give something back they basically refuse, (the "bugger you jack I'm alright attitude") unless there's something in it for them.
As I say I don't know enough about Ervin Somogyi to form my own opinion as yet other than he seems a very knowledgable chap but Kim has a little more history of the man and has no doubt formed his opinion around this, who am I to knock him or you for having an opinion?
Opinions are like arseholes............everyone's got one.

[jeffhigh]

It is hard to really get a sense of Somogyi's teachings because he is so secretive, I gather you have to sign a non disclosure form before attending his workshops.
All I have to go on is the articles published on his website and the video's and neither really impressed me.
Those who have the books, please tell us the gist of the revelations.

[Hesh1956]

Regarding Ervin's books they are excellent - the best read on guitar building that I have ever read.

It's interesting to me that in matters regarding Ervin as discussed on a couple of guitar building forums there always seems to be a bit of a disconnect between those who have been exposed to Ervin's ideas, methods, and beliefs and those who have not.

For example I know a number of folks who have taken Ervin's class. When they come back it's as if their minds were blown but mixed in with what I can only describe as a bit of a lost look on their faces when they attempt to explain the experience to others. Go figure.

One of the best explanations that I can recall was when it was said that Ervin does not provide a blueprint to build a guitar but he does provide a different way for folks to think about the goals and how to get there. In short he encourages folks to think for themselves.

I have been through the books nearly twice now and I can't imagine not rethinking some of the things that I do when I build a guitar as a result of what I have read. I wouldn't say that I learned any specific thing to do but I would say that my approach toward the goal is changing as a result of what I have read. And... I am excited about it too.

Is it possible to learn to build a world class guitar without Ervin's books? Absolutely and a number of folks have done just that. We can too if we have the talent, drive, and importantly the mind for it as well.

Regarding steak knives - You bet



Sorry I couldn't resist - please disregard my BS above I just wanted to post this pic...

[jeffhigh]

Sounds more like a religious experience Hesh

[Hesh1956]

Absolutely Jeff!

Ervin achba!

[Nick]

Hey they aint Ginsu Knives!!

[Kim]

First up,

Ricardo could you please re-read my post and those of others and explain where you got the idea that anyone was bagging the books or the skills of the man? As a woodworker he is brilliant...envy? No. Tall poppy? No.

Nick,

Thanks mate but I must clarify a few things. To the best of my knowledge Ervin Somogyi has never been an overly active member of any guitar building forum and if he had been, would most certainly not have learnt anything from such a novice as myself.

As I understand Ervin Somogyi was building guitars for many years before the inception of the internet. However I am certain that he had not been doing so before his peers and fellow GAL members such as Charles Fox, Irving Sloan, Dana Bourgeois, Richard Hoover, Bill Collings, Tom Ellis, Mike Stevens, James Goodall, etc, etc, etc (and these are just a handful of the steel string builders) had been sharing their knowledge with each other and advancing the development of the instrument.

Whilst I may find his 'secret brotherhood' 'Club Somogyi' business plan to be a little selfish and hypercritical given the amount of 'food for thought' which has been served his way freely and fattened his lutherical mind, this is his choice and he has every right to take that path even if it is pecieved by some as being an ungracious departure from the one which has given him so much. My main problem however remains this habitual nonsense of first agreeing to be interviewed and then refusing to allow it to be shown in a public forum. Exactly what does he think is going to happen to that footage whilst he was sitting there on that stool saying "Are you recording this" 'thud' 'thud' 'thud' "hold on i'll just pull the tape off, so much handling of these things you know" 'bong' bong' bong' "nothing that can't be edited out i suppose".............I reckon its all just a big add, in fact i would go so far as to label the footage i have seen so far as nothing more the 'Ervinspam'.


EDIT: and this just now from the OLF regarding the same video as submitted by the member who uploaded same to YouTube:

I can assure everybody in this forum, that, over the course of five years and a lot of money my wife and I spent on our dream to create the most extensive video library and resource of contemporary guitar making, we did not shoot one minute of video without receiving the legal rights and releases to use the footage. Luthier icons like José Romanillos, John Monteleone, Rick Turner and probably 25 or 30 others were proud to participate and share their knowledge. If there is one thing in the world we DON'T want to do (and we never did), is to infringe anybodies copyright. Out of deep respect to any guitar maker we still try to understand motives and not go into legal actions. I am confident that this issue will be straightened out in a couple of days.
We will keep up our work - there is so much more to share!
Regards,
Holger

Oh, one more point in clarification. I used the term "habitual" in my last statement in reference to the 5 weekly video instalments that where withdrawn from the OLF a few years back. One minute they were available to everyone for download because Ervin had reached some agreement with the OLF about an on-line class, the next thing the videos were taken down again under threat of copyright proceedings by Ervin Somogyi. His classes seemed to book out pretty quick though and from what I can gather some kind of gag agreement or 'understanding' regarding disclosure is part and parcel of the course


Cheers

Kim

[Joe Sustaire]

Your posts mirror my perception Kim!

Joe

[WaddyT]

I more in tune with Hesh on this trip. Ervin give plenty of credit to his mentors in his book, and he footnotes information he has gained from others. He also quotes others frequently, and give the credit where it's due. He never says his way is the only way, as a matter of fact, he says there are many ways. He sells his way as "his way", nothing else. One he gives great credit to as a primary mentor is John Gilbert, with his engineered bridge, and his perceptions on long dipole and cross dipole vibrations in a guitar top. It is all information he gleaned from others, and through extensive study and testing. I have, in reading the books, never seen a reference to his way being the best.

I can't speak to the copyright thing, but my perception of that is, that he is a supreme marketer, and in that effort, may be over protective of his brand, when it is not necessary. He'd be the first to tell you he gets what he does for his guitars, because he can, and the market pays the price. He pretty much says that's the case. It's not something he hides.

I think there is great jealousy out there over Ervin and his methods, and it makes a lot of folks mad, because they want the simple answer. He never, even in his book, gives the "Magic Bullet" answers to questions of building, but he does stir the mind in a different way. He gets you to thinking about how things work, and how you can best use this thinking to bring greater responsivity(don't know if that's a word! ) to your instruments. I believe that much of his knowledge comes from his knowledge of classical and flamenco guitar building, and I also believe that steel string builders would do themselves well to build a few classical guitars, to see how to get the most out of the wood. I'm sure you have noticed that Kim. I realize they are different animals, but to coax the best sound out of a classical, you really have to be attentive to light construction, that will still hold up under tension. It does, however, help in thinking light, which is really what a great part of Ervin's philosophy is all about.

I'm done now.

[Nick]

Well my simple little video link has sparked some interesting conversation and some really good points. Thanks to Hesh and Waddy for your comments on the books, sound like a useful read when I get around to purchasing a set. Sorry Kim for misreading your post
You say Waddy, he doesn't provide the "magic bullet" to building but I don't think anybody could write a 'definitive' or exact account to building the perfect guitar anyway. Just from the soundboard alone no two pieces of spruce are the same, even cut from the same tree they have different densities and qualities that have to be 'allowed' for via bracing (which varies from one piece to the next!) & thicknessing. I think at best, a guitar building style of book could only be a guide. These books sound different from what you've said, in that they come from the 'factors to be considered' angle. Anything that gets us thinking more about why we do the things we do is a valuable tool in my books (No pun intended ) and allows us to get closer to that "perfect" build.
As for the videos they may have another life.....or not.
And I still want my commission.

[hilo_kawika]

I haven't read Ervin's books but I've seen a number of his articles. And there's nothing in these articles that's original to him in terms of describing guitar behavior and response. The articles are often vague to the point of being useless.

I think he's a very talented craftsperson, but also someone who will try to game the system for maximum profit. My advice on the books: caveat emptor...

aloha,

Dave Hurd
http://www.ukuleles.com

[Paul B]

The articles are often vague to the point of being useless.

Dave Hurd
http://www.ukuleles.com

Those are my thoughts too. And then you ask some of his students to explain what they learned on the course, and you get vague responses. This just makes me think that the bloke isn't a good teacher or otherwise his students would be able to summarise. And yet he seems to be quite a good lecturer on the vids, but doesn't give much away. The bullshit detector is off the scale at this point.

So I press for a better response over at the OLF and get shat on from a great height for questioning this new God. Finally I get a PM from someone telling me that all the students are sworn to secrecy. Finally, an honest answer! I don't know why they were all uncomfortable admitting to having signed a non-disclosure agreement, they are pretty standard in my industry - we won't even let anyone in the door without signing one.

However, we are now in what has been called "The Golden Age of Luthery". This has a lot to do with the fact that we are all talking and learning on the web - a free exchange of information. In this industry sharing, benefits us all. Absorbing information (and he says he's still learning) but giving nothing back unless he gets a thick wad of cash, is not adding to this "Golden Age", it's hobbling it.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for the bloke, some of his workmanship is exceptional. I just find it frustrating that he won't join us.

And yes, I'll be buying the books too.