Some saddle questions

[vandenboom]

It's almost bridge/saddle making time again for me for steel string and I would appreciate your experience on the following 2 things.

1. Until now, I have only used 3/32" saddles. I'm aware of the benefits of using 1/8" - i.e. more room to play with intonation. But is there a tradeoff or downside?

2. In a fairly current thread "A New Bridge", Rick Turner brought up the practice by some of tilting the saddle back 9 or 10 degrees and that this has some benefit, paricularly where under saddle pickups are used. I will be installing one of these pickups on current build. The theory makes sense to me but does anyone know how widespread the practice is and have a view on its benefit. [Damm it, I thought my saddle slotting jig was finally right and didn't think I was going to have make another one!!]

Thanks. Frank.

[woodrat]

It's almost bridge/saddle making time again for me for steel string and I would appreciate your experience on the following 2 things.

1. Until now, I have only used 3/32" saddles. I'm aware of the benefits of using 1/8" - i.e. more room to play with intonation. But is there a tradeoff or downside?

2. In a fairly current thread "A New Bridge", Rick Turner brought up the practice by some of tilting the saddle back 9 or 10 degrees and that this has some benefit, paricularly where under saddle pickups are used. I will be installing one of these pickups on current build. The theory makes sense to me but does anyone know how widespread the practice is and have a view on its benefit. [Damm it, I thought my saddle slotting jig was finally right and didn't think I was going to have make another one!!]

Thanks. Frank.

Hello Frank, These are some of the things that I am grinding through my grey matter at the moment. I also have used 3/32 saddles on all my instruments so far. I do a lot of looking at websites of custom makers everywhere to try to catch a new idea/technique/concept that may improve my instruments. Recently I looked at the beautiful guitars of Bruce Petros in the US of A. He has a very informative website obviously to impress prospective clients but sites like his are great for luthier sleuths like us! He mentioned that he does indeed tilt the saddle back 10 degrees and he uses an exceptionally wide saddle., I emailed him and asked him about it (making it clear to him that I am a luthier and was interested from a design point of view ) and he kindly emailed back saying that his saddles were 3/16 of an inch wide, saying that it is good for intonation to have that sort of width and signing off that he hopes I have fun. The extra wide saddle gives a wide intonation range and the back angle increases the efficiency of the strings ability to transfer vibration to the bridge. Also early ovations had wide separate saddle pieces for each string so again the same thinking on intonation scope. I like to look of the narrower saddles but if there is an advantage to be had with wider ones then it maybe good to give them a try. Also he has an interesting take on bridge plates.

Have a look at Petrosguiatrs.com or search google for petros guitars and see what you think.

I'd like to hear what others think about it too.

Cheers John

[Tom West]

Frank: Don,t have any experience with under the saddle transducers,but do use wide saddles.Mine are mostly about 3/16 of an inch wide. It adds a bit more weight but I tend to use a small bridge foot print thus it evens out. Find it must easier to place the bridge and then deal with intonation. Although I don,t use a back slope am considering doing so. This has the advantage correcting intonation as you raise or lower the height of the saddle. Higher saddle results in the break point being further back by a small amount. Lower saddle is the reverse. As i say all theory to me . Maybe some one else will comment. Cheers Tom.

[Hesh1956]

I use a 1/8" saddle and it works great for me, plenty of room to tweak the intonation.

But thinner saddles work fine too provided that the guitar is constructed precise enough for the thinner saddle intonation range to be satisfactory.

Check out Ervin Somogyi's site, he uses very thick saddles, for an article on how he believes that thicker saddles with enough material behind the break point for the string to lay across increases vibrational transfer.

One of the ideas behind tilted back saddles is that the stresses on the saddle that are pulling the top of the saddle forward are reduced as the strings now break over the top of a saddle that is slanted backwards. I can see how this results in more downward pressure as Rick mentioned and less of a tendency for the saddle to want to fall forward and split the bridge.

I also know at least 3 builders who lean their saddles and are happy with the results.

My own personal feeling is that tilting the saddle probably does make sense but I also feel that there are a thousand other things, some much more fundamental, that will contribute to a great guitar that plays, sounds, and holds up great and these things are more of a priority to master first before getting into nuisances that - may - add value not to mention complexity.

Another thought that is always on my mind when considering anything that goes on a guitar top is mass. My own personal belief is that the saddle, bridge, pins, plate, and top all need to be optimized as a "team" to work in concert to be efficient in driving the guitar's top. With this said the added weight of thicker saddles may or may not play well with some bridge/plate combos. Of course the only way to find out is to experiment.

Lastly although in a perfect world we would all like our guitars to come back to us and only us in the event of the need for a repair someday. I do have some concerns that departures from accepted convention in design and construction may be a license for some less than qualified repair person to someday be confused with what they are attempting to service and screw it up....

But I know.... think positive.....

[Rick Turner]

Many in the acoustic guitar lutherie community are very resistant to the whole idea of optimizing their guitars for amplification. "I build ACOUSTIC guitars..." and all that. Well, out there in the "real world" over 50% of the acoustic guitars sold these days have pickups in them either ex-factory or as retrofits. I know, you don't like to acknowledge Takamine, Washburn, Maton, etc. But that's the real world out there.

Tilting back the saddle is a bit more difficult until you're jigged up to do it, and then it's no more difficult than cutting the saddle slot perpendicular to the top. I do it either with a slanted jig on my CNC machine or on my small vertical mill. I used to do it on bridges "in situ" using a slanted fixture that clamped onto the guitar. No big deal.

What is a big deal, though, is the improvement in performance of undersaddle pickups. Issues like string balance are reduced by at least 90% with the pressure being more straight down through the saddle.

Also, many builders do not have a great deal of experience in doing day in day out guitar repair. Those of you who do have that experience have seen what happens to acoustic guitar bridges over years and decades, and sometimes it's not a pretty thing. The front wall of the saddle slot often bows out, and cracks appear at the ends of the slot, particularly if the saddle is tall. Tilting the saddle slot back greatly reduces the pressure on the front wall of the saddle slot.

Much of what I do as a guitar designer is informed by over 45 years experience as a guitar repairman. It's great to theorize about how to make durable guitars that sound great. It's even better to actually see what happens to guitars as they age.

I find a 1/8" saddle sufficient for most guitars when it comes to intonation. Baritone guitars sometimes need more radical compensation, but a standard tuned instrument should be fine at 1/8".

[vandenboom]

The two dreadnoughts I'm finishing here will both be used a lot for amplified performance, hence the under saddle piezo - on that basis, I'm going for it.
I figure I can use my current jig pretty much as is, but build up the straight edge I run my router against by about 17mm. 110mm router base and 9 degree angle (110 x tan(9) = 17.4)
I haven't heard one argument against 1/8" saddle other than some people like the thinner look of 3/32.
Thanks eveyone.
Frank