Selmer Build Pics

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Selmer Build Pics

Post by Nick » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:05 pm

In response to Matthew & Mike Thomas who wanted some shots of my recent (but not latest) build of a Selmer Style, I've cobbled together some shots I took of the process. I've left out some of the more blurry/out of focus pics (I really must make an effort to improve my photography skills!). The majority of the guitar is no different from other acoustics so it might be yawn inducing to most of you, but the soundboards are made differently so may be of more interest.

I don't own a Fox side bender so all forming is done with a heating iron & I don't pull the, 'point' furthest from the neck on the cutaway, right into the mould as it's a pretty tight curve & I'm always conscious of splitting the timber on such a tight curve. The head block has a taper on the cutaway side which when all glued up makes the side taper at the neck joint. A nice touch by Selmer that really feels nice on the hand when playing it.
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The sides glued to neck & tailblock and linings glued in.
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A side shot showing the shape of the sides, not just a straight taper from neck to tail!
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The MDF thing it's sitting on is a clever idea of Micheal Collins that I copied, it's a curved dish matching the compound radius the top needs to be (the front 2 braces & back braces are a 12 foot radius and the other 3 front braces are a 7 foot radius). Each brace radius was drawn onto an mdf "rib" and cut out with the convex piece being thrown away & keeping the concave which gets glued to a base in the corresponding positions. I then run a longtitudinal "rib" down the length and then glued a 5mm thick piece of mdf onto my rib's, I now had a formed dish that I could sand & glue braces to the exact 3 dimensional shape, mark out and fit the side to(to match the shape needed for the soundboard). I made another for the back with the constant 12' radius which again was used for shaping & gluing the back braces & shaping the sides a 25 foot longtitudinal radius is used down it's length.

Next, a pretty standard looking back (minus the re-enforcing strip at this stage.)
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Back glued to the sides (a little out of sequence because I actually made the soundboard after the sides,then the back)
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Onto the soundboard, I cut the rough outline, shot the joint edges (doesn't have to be perfect at this stage!) then marked where the pliage was to go then heat bent my plates.
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Here's a side shot to give you a better idea of the amount of pliage I added.
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After this I shot the joint edges perfectly and joined them. The Petite Bouche soundhole was cut and the rosette was made using many bits of purfling!
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Customer wanted the magnetic pickup in so I placed it to fall at the end of the fingerboard, usually the fingerboard extends to the 22nd fret in this area (the back of the soundboard is re-enforced at this point so I figured cutting an extra hole in the soundboard at this point wouldn't affect the vibration of the top plate too much).
Here's a shot from the back of the plate showing the re-enforcing strip and all the other 'flat' bracing that has to be placed before the ladder bracing is glued in. The two short braces are shaped to match the pliage so the soundboard is held in it's "correct" shape, they are also spaced from the centerline to correspond with the feet of the bridge to help drive the whole board.
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A shot showing all the bracing of the top plate.
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The final ladder brace (the 5th one) before the tailblock doesn't have to be there unless you are using the original long 670mm scale length, I left it in because being my first go at a Selmer I didn't know how it would compromise the soundboard's strength. But my latest one has a 25" scale and I left it out to see if it opened up the soundboard & it seems to have worked!
A shot of everything on the soundbox before finally gluing the top on (strengthening backstrip now in place!)
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And all glued on with binding channel routed. Because it's a very 3 dimensional shape (as opposed to the archtops I'd made) I had to make a routing stand which is a good point of this build! I now have a proper routing stand 8) Hole in the side isn't a top secret soundport shape as used by NASA, its for the Gotoh battery box.
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Tail end bindings done & body bound.
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Neck was a pretty standard 2 piece sapele mahogany affair. The Selmers employ a zero fret so the little tapered ebony piece doubles as a fingerboard stop and bone string guide holder. I'd just inlaid my M.O.P signature into the headstock & it was waiting to be dressed down in this shot.
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And finally just a few 'detail' shots of the finished axe.
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Customer's signature inlaid into the tailpiece.

Tail end putting on a shiny face :)
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And all nailed and glued together.
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Mike hope this gave you a bit of an idea and if you have any questions feel free to post or PM. Not saying I'm any sort of expert but I must have done something right as it plays and is being lovingly used by it's owner.
Last edited by Nick on Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:41 am, edited 10 times in total.
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Post by Paul B » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:10 pm

Nice clean work!

Very impressed.

Paul

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Post by Nick » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:22 pm

Paul B wrote:Nice clean work!

Very impressed.

Paul
Thanks Paul, Very much appreciated.
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Post by Lillian » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:46 pm

Wow, thanks Nick. I have never seen a Selmer before. Its way cool. Your work is meticulous. What a great guitar.

Any chance you have a sound clip or three laying around?

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Post by Dennis Leahy » Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:00 pm

Very, very far from a yawn, Nick!

I must be blind. I had no idea Selmer's have a bent soundboard. What's your technique for the final shooting for the top seam?

Also, you sure make that elliptical soundhole look easy, well, maybe I should say you left out the hard parts! :lol: Can you expand a bit on your technique for the soundhole? I just did an elliptical soundhole, and found out how hard it is to do! Yours looks great!


{edit} allow me to add yet another question: the zero fret... I have a guitar on the drawing board that may end up with a zero fret, and I was wondering just how close you can cut to the end of the fingerboard before the wood just chips out when you pound or press the zero fret in. Looks like you cut it pretty close (2mm?) Do you then rabbet the nut to hide that last little bit of fingerboard, or feature it visibly?

Thanks! (Sorry for so many questions - this is a beautiful guitar, and there are a number of features on the Selmers that (obviously) don't get shown frequently on luthier's forums.)

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Post by Nick » Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:46 pm

Lillian wrote:Wow, thanks Nick. I have never seen a Selmer before. Its way cool. Your work is meticulous. What a great guitar.

Any chance you have a sound clip or three laying around?
Thanks Lilian for your words :) I do like to take pride in my workmanship, even on bits that may not show, it comes from being an engineer that works to thousandths of an inch in his day job :lol: & yes they are a way cool guitar. They have a small body size (15 3/4" across the lower bout) which makes it comfortable to play, but it kicks like a mule in volume & they have such a cool soundboard shape. Lots of fun to make :serg
No sound files yet unfortunately although it's owner quite often does recordings either as the lead or backing other Jazz muso's so I'll post one if it becomes available. I can tell you though that because it's only a 24 5/8 scale, the sound varies from the typical cutting sound of a Selmer (ala Django) & is a bit more mellow or bassy acoustically, but the beauty of the pickup system installed is that he can just have the soundboard K&K's on and it really kicks in the top ends if he want's that typical gypsy jazz sound.
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Post by DarwinStrings » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:11 pm

Nice Nick...by the way, that wasn't a yawn it was just my jaw hanging open.

Jim

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Post by Nick » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:35 pm

Dennis Leahy wrote:Very, very far from a yawn, Nick!

I must be blind. I had no idea Selmer's have a bent soundboard. What's your technique for the final shooting for the top seam?

Also, you sure make that elliptical soundhole look easy, well, maybe I should say you left out the hard parts! :lol: Can you expand a bit on your technique for the soundhole? I just did an elliptical soundhole, and found out how hard it is to do! Yours looks great!


{edit} allow me to add yet another question: the zero fret... I have a guitar on the drawing board that may end up with a zero fret, and I was wondering just how close you can cut to the end of the fingerboard before the wood just chips out when you pound or press the zero fret in. Looks like you cut it pretty close (2mm?) Do you then rabbet the nut to hide that last little bit of fingerboard, or feature it visibly?

Thanks! (Sorry for so many questions - this is a beautiful guitar, and there are a number of features on the Selmers that (obviously) don't get shown frequently on luthier's forums.)

Dennis
Thanks Dennis, I appreciate your comments and questions. No need to apologise, asking is the only way we get to find out things and I'm only too glad to share my experiences.
I'll attempt to answer your questions as best as I can now as I'm still learning the art of these guitars so my ideas/ways for doing things may change over time.
Firstly shooting the final 'bent' joint is remarkably simple. I have a piece of 3 inch wide hardwood that I shape to match the pliage bend in the board (if your looking from the side obviously). I just hold the top down onto this hardwood piece and shoot the same as you would with a standard shooting board. I just turn the hardwood form end for end, depending on which half of the board I'm shooting.
The Oval soundhole again is remarkably simple and I must again thank Micheal Collins for passing on his methods. An oval is cut in a piece of Mdf that matches the final(outside) size of the purfling channel. I cut it out on a bandsaw and then I squared up the sides & accurately finished the outline with files. Then you make a "donut" that accurately drops down inside the first oval so it doesnt twist or move & make it of an accurate & equal width all around (I made mine a 5/8" wide donut finishing with files as before).
Place the first outer oval template in the right position on the soundboard & clamp down in place on your workbench with a piece of scrap wood behind the soundboard so you dont cut into the bench later! Put a 1/2" DIA template bit in your router (one with the bearing at the top of the bit). Set the depth of cut to about 3/4 the thickness of the top (which is only 2mm thick - a smidge over 1/16th), then carefully drop the cutter down into the spruce and follow the template around. Purfling groove cut! leave the template clamped up and drop the donut in. Set the depth of cut to cut just through the soundboard and make your cut. Soundhole cut! Because your purfling groove is 1/2" wide & the donut is 5/8" wide, you are left with 1/8th between the inner purfling rig and the edge of the soundhole.
As for your Zero fret question, the 'standard' width between the zero fret and the end of the board is 1/8" but I use a StewMac fret barber and make the fret tang just a tad over the groove width (typically 23 thou so fret tang is 24 thou) so I have less chance of the end chipping out but there is no reason not to have 1/8th I just alter this to get the 14th fret body joint in exactly the right spot & allows me some latitude when marking the neck out.
I've had fretboards that bend like a Queensland bannana after pounding the standard 'unfiled' frets in & in my opinion, imparting undue stress to the neck overhang on my archtops, so I've started filing the tangs down and pressing frets in. With abit of glue in the slot I haven't had a rattly fret yet since adopting this method.
No the nut (or more accurately string spacer) just sits up against the end of the fingerboard, more from a strength perspective I would guess? If you rebated the spacer so that it butted against the zero fret then by the time you cut your grooves it would be extremely thin (& brittle) between the body of the spacer and zero fret, and also structurally it isn't neccessary to butt the two up.
Hope this helps and feel free to ask any more questions if you have them.
Last edited by Nick on Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:39 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Post by Nick » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:14 pm

Toejam wrote:Nice Nick...by the way, that wasn't a yawn it was just my jaw hanging open.

Jim
Thanks Jim, it really does mean alot to me when I hear other makers enjoying my work as I enjoy looking & learning from theirs.
Now if I can only just convince a few Kiwi jazz muso's to part with their cash :lol:
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Post by matthew » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:51 pm

Holy Maccaferri!

That looks like a job and 3/4. I'll have to digest all that over the next few days. Thanks for posting, Nick.

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Post by Nick » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:57 pm

matthew wrote:Holy Maccaferri!

That looks like a job and 3/4. I'll have to digest all that over the next few days. Thanks for posting, Nick.
No worries & only too glad to post. :D
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Post by Bob Connor » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:52 pm

Gee - I go away for a few days and there's more beautiful guitars here when I get back.

G'day Nick and welcome to the forum. Nice work there and thanks for the pics on how you are doing things.
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Post by Dennis Leahy » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:39 am

Thanks, Nick!

For the elliptical soundhole I made, I dropped a piece of burl in to a rabbet on top, and a piece of (crossgrain) black dyed veneer into a rabbet on the underside, then cut the hole out. What I found difficult was that I could not make a piece (burl and veneer) exactly the correct size to drop in, and so I had to resort to sand and fit, sand and fit...

Maybe I'll try the multi-line purfling next time. It looks fiddly, but maybe slightly easier because the purfling strips are flexible. Note that I did NOT say "easy!" :lol:

Thanks for the tips!

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Post by Joe Sustaire » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:00 am

That is one great looking build Nick!
And I'm with Dennis, I've only seen pics of these guitars, never realized that had that bent sound-board, pretty incredible!

Joe
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Post by Nick » Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:34 am

Dennis Leahy wrote:Thanks, Nick!

For the elliptical soundhole I made, I dropped a piece of burl in to a rabbet on top, and a piece of (crossgrain) black dyed veneer into a rabbet on the underside, then cut the hole out. What I found difficult was that I could not make a piece (burl and veneer) exactly the correct size to drop in, and so I had to resort to sand and fit, sand and fit...

Maybe I'll try the multi-line purfling next time. It looks fiddly, but maybe slightly easier because the purfling strips are flexible. Note that I did NOT say "easy!" :lol:

Thanks for the tips!

Dennis
No Problems Dennis. A burl veneer rosette would look gorgeous, I guess you could use the outside of the donut for the outer edge of the rosette as it would match the purfling channel you've cut with the template ,maybe double sided tape it to the veneer to hold it in position then carefully remove it with a razor blade? or soak the tape/veneer join with solvent to 'unstick' it? Then you are only left trimming up the inner edge. If you have a router table then you could set a piece of large dowel, to act as a guide, 1/2" from your cutter, sandwhich the veneer between 2 sacrificial bits of wood roughly cut to size and just run the rosette around between the cutter and guide?
Just an idea. :?:
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Post by Nick » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:02 am

Joe Sustaire wrote:That is one great looking build Nick!
And I'm with Dennis, I've only seen pics of these guitars, never realized that had that bent sound-board, pretty incredible!

Joe
Thanks for your words Joe :oops:
They are an incredible little guitar and as far as I can ascertain, the tops were designed bent to try and get the same volume and behaviour as an archtop but were easier & cheaper to produce because they didn't have to be carved from solid spruce.
A little history of the design (if anybodies interested). As you may be able to tell, I absolutely love them & am fascinated by them.
http://www.lutherie.net/bckgrnd.html
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Post by Nick » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:10 am

bob wrote:Gee - I go away for a few days and there's more beautiful guitars here when I get back.

G'day Nick and welcome to the forum. Nice work there and thanks for the pics on how you are doing things.
Thanks also to you Bob, I've seen your work so your kind words really do mean alot. My next build (which is almost complete, pics will be posted in due course!) uses Tasmanian Blackwood,which I notice features on some of your work, & I'm quite excited how it's turning out (even though I do say so myself! :oops: ).
It's good to be on the forum seeing how others approach their art & sharing their thoughts & experiences. I understand that you are the man responsible for making this forum possible so a big thanks to you for your efforts. :serg :serg :serg :serg
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Post by Dean » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:05 pm

I think I saw Bob Heinz playing this guitar at the Nelson Jazz festival. It sounds as good as it looks.

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Post by Mike Thomas » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:42 pm

Nick, thanks for the photos, and all the explanatory comments. I found them very useful.
I may be anticipating difficulties that don't exist, but I wonder if you had any problems in getting a good fit between top and sides, given the complex nature of the doming/arching.
Did you use Michael Collins Favino drawing as a basis for your guitars?
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Post by Nick » Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:23 pm

Dean wrote:I think I saw Bob Heinz playing this guitar at the Nelson Jazz festival. It sounds as good as it looks.
Thanks for your comments Dean. I must admit I'm pretty chuffed when I hear somebody of Bob's calibre playing a guitar that I made. It was a pleasure & privilege making it for him & he's become a friend since.
Yeah Bob was up that way over Christmas/New year & I know he took it with him and played a few informal gigs, one with Hot Club Sandwich, so that probably was the beast you saw. He was still playing around with Amp/pickup settings to extract that 'perfect' sound from it but I was talking to him last night and he reckoned he'd finally cracked it. Then went on to tell me he was getting a new amp today so I guess he'll be tweaking his sound some more yet! :lol:
Last edited by Nick on Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Nick » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:09 pm

Mike Thomas wrote:Nick, thanks for the photos, and all the explanatory comments. I found them very useful.
I may be anticipating difficulties that don't exist, but I wonder if you had any problems in getting a good fit between top and sides, given the complex nature of the doming/arching.
Did you use Michael Collins Favino drawing as a basis for your guitars?
No Problems Mike, only to glad to put up the pics if it helps/inspires somebody else to build one of these great axes :wink:
Using the front plate dish setup I outlined in the pics, it was no problem at all to get things matching up and gap free. With the straight sides sitting on the dish/form front edge down, I just used a compass set at the biggest gap size (which was at the waist) and drew around the sides, the point of the compass followed the dish contours which is essentially the finished shape of the front plate. I then trimmed the sides to this line (on a belt sander) then, after gluing on the kerfed linings, used a sanding paddle to get the correct arching across the body right (with the correct shimming on the opposite edge to give the right radius angle). You can test fit the edge against the dish/form until it sits down perfectly with no gaps around the edge. The soundboard is only 2mm thick and so if there is any warping in the spruce (due to the pliage bend) it pulls down easily onto the sides & providing you have your dish right the soundboard must be right!
The back edge is done the same way (on it's own dish) with the tailend packed up accordingly to give the correct 1/2" taper from neck to tail block.
I remember having the same question in my head "How the hell would you do that?" because his explanation in his book was a little vague (& he doesn't use the same method himself anymore, but more on that later) then I watched the DVD set (building a Selmer Maccafferi guitar) that Micheal Collins produced in which he does it this way & I thought "How bloody easy is that!" took him all of about 30 seconds to scribe the lines.
Onto your last question I didn't use plans, I now have the Favino plans you mention (the Favino is slightly bigger across the bouts and is braced differently) but for this guitar I used Micheal's book. The book he produces (again "Building a Selmer Maccafferi guitar") doesn't have plans as such, it has all the relevant dimensions (braces, placements, bout dimensions e.t.c) shown on drawings and by laying these out on a bit of cardboard I was able to fill in any dimensions I didn't have by scaling off the book using the dimensions I did have as reference. Fortunately the customer had a cheap Maccafferi copy already (although it was a Grande Bouche model, but the same body size) so I was able to compare my pattern with his guitar & apart from the tight curve transitioning from the cutaway to the side being abit tight on my pattern, it was all smack on.
If you are going to build one and haven't done so before, I recommend getting the book, whilst it isn't perfect, some of the techniques he employs are outdated when you see how he did things much simpler in his DVD's and some of his explanations aren't that clear, it is a good book to get just for the dimensions and how these things are built (Micheal builds his true to the original design, laminated, morticed headstock, even using french walnut on the necks).
If you have anymore questions fire ahead I'm only too glad to answer any I can, I'm still learning these instruments myself and make no claim as to being an expert. I was going to say email me but it may be of more value to others that could be interested if they get posted here on the forum?
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Post by Mike Thomas » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:39 pm

Nick, thanks for the comprehensive reply. A further question if you don't mind:- the originals used fairly thin tops and backs, very close to 2mm for the top, for instance. Did you do the same?
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Post by Nick » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:34 pm

Mike Thomas wrote:Nick, thanks for the comprehensive reply. A further question if you don't mind:- the originals used fairly thin tops and backs, very close to 2mm for the top, for instance. Did you do the same?
I don't mind at all. I did 2mm for both back & front for the one you see here but my latest one uses 2mm for the soundboard and comes in at about 2.8mm on the back if I remember rightly.
If you are interested, I'll explain why the differing thicknesses, otherwise skip the next sleep inducing novel.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
The following theory is purely something that I have come up with & could be totally wrong (or right? being self taught I haven't had anybody to tell me 'the right way') but by using it when deciding what sound I want to achieve it seems to have worked alright for me so far.
From my experiences with the archtops I've made where the back is what gives the instrument it's voice (the soundboard gives it's responsiveness to string attack and gives it the intial drive that gets the air moving inside the box) & is the critical factor in 'tuning' the sound box via the re-curve. I've carried this thinking over into these guitars also, to some extent. The back reflects the sound back out through the front of the instrument & by varying it's flexability along with the type of wood used, can determine the timbre/voice of the guitar. A more flexible back would project more of a rounded sound as it is allowed to move & reflect soundwaves easily, even for the lower frequencies. By tightening the back plate up (either by extra bracing or increasing it's thickness) it doesn't want to move (or is not allowed to move) much for the bass frequencies hitting it ,but will move easily for the higher frequencies. I liken it to a speaker cone, if you lightly dampen the cone's excursion (the amount you are allowing it to move), the sound it produces is without lower frequencies and gets "thin", the more you dampen the cone the thinner the sound produced.
This first guitar was the customers choice, he wanted a mellow sound (with a bit of that gypsy bite :) ) acoustically, that could be altered via electrics to give him gypsy jazz right through to Wes Montgomery. Simply because he plays and teaches many different styles of jazz! He wanted a guitar for all seasons, so when he decided on EIR I also chose to open the back up a bit to give it the more fuller sound.

The second one I wanted a little more bite to it, so along with the choice of Blackwood (which I would consider more "reflective" than EIR), I made the back plate thicker to give it more a top end sound ala Django. Ofcourse you get too thick and overall volume suffers! Defeats the purpose of an acoustic instrument really doesn't it? :) I haven't built or experimented with enough guitars yet to determine at which thickness this would happen or would be the optimum thickness but I hope to eventually build a 'mule' that I can try all these ideas out on.

Selmers were laminated so were thinner given they only used 3 veneers (thick by todays standards of veneer), but by the very nature of layers of glue & perpendicular grain directions they were building stiffness into the back plate & could structurally be considered the same as a plate that is thicker.


Apologies if I rattled on too much, or spoke alot of rubbish, just theories I have. :shock:
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Post by Stephen Kinnaird » Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:41 am

Rattle away, Nick. Always good to hear thoughtful people think outloud.
Especially those who do such nice work!

Thanks for posting,

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Post by Mike Thomas » Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:55 am

Yes, Nick, rattle away. All of this is very interesting. Your comments on the relationship between the stiffness/thickness of the back and,as you put it, the "voice" of the instrument are significant. In the violin world I believe that there is a generally recognised link between the stiffness of the back and projection of sound. I was fortunate to attend one of Rick Turner's mandolin workshops last year, and he said that when making an acoustic guitar he likes to know where it is to be played: is it for someone to play in the lounge at home, or is it in a public venue. And he then makes the back accordingly: thicker/stiffer/denser for the public venue.
At least, I think that's what he said. :)
Mike Thomas


"There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness is the true method"

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