Not sure I qualify to be here...but I'm here anyway

[Richardl]

G'day folks

I have never built a guitar in my life and can't play one either. I do play the trumpet, but so far have failed to make a wooden one. I have made a couple of harps which I have enjoyed learning to play a little ... once I figured out that they don't have a mouthpiece. Anyway, none of that qualifies me as a luthier.

A few days ago I woke up with a little voice in my head...build a guitar Richard, build a guitar. It hasn't gone away so I'm here via some helpful pointers on the UBeaut woodwork forum. I guess I'll be lurking to pick up some pointers.

I'm planning on buying a few books to start with (Natelson and Cumpiano, Bogdanavich and one with a plan by Kinkead ...hope I have spelled most of that right).

I was wondering where Kiwi luthiers obtain their timbers and if any luthiers live in my vicinity (Palmerston North).

I guess one of the big challenges for me will be understanding how to bend wood. Anyway, I'm looking at this as a long-term interest so there is plenty of time to learn. My daughter is learning guitar so I suppose making something half decent for her is my motivation.

Can anyone suggest a good beginers plan for a simple nylon-strung instrument? Presumably thats the place to start.

Open to suggestions.

Cheers from Sunny (not) Palmy

[kiwigeo]

Gidday Richard,

You meet our tough requirements for membership...welcome to the forum.

The three books you mention are the three most used books in my workshop. Id add in Jim William's book as well....it has a plan in the back of it and his approach is a low tech one which suits many beginners.

If building a classical is your game then Campiano and Nelson cover bulding classicals. Courtnals Book 'Building Master Guitars" is another good book on classical and it includes diagrams and dimensions for many classicals.

Graham Wardrop who lives in Christchurch is a luthier as well as accomplishe musician so hed be the guy to ask about local sources of tonewoods. If Graham doesnt pipe up with a reply to this post then PM him with your query.

Cheers Martin

[Paul B]

You belong here for sure. Welcome aboard!

I myself woke up one morning a few years ago, with the imperative in my head that I had to buy a guitar and learn how to play it. I thought this was kinda dumb, but three weeks later I still HAD to do it. Now here I am, an admin of a guitar building forum, building my fourth guitar.

Kinda weird, but very cool.

Still can't play for shit, but what the hell.

[Bob Connor]

G'day Richard and welcome aboard.

Most of us here build steel strings with the exception, I think of Martin, so I'm sure he'll be a great resource in respect to classical guitars.

Having said that, the construction techniques are somewhat similar from steel to nylon, so if you've got any questions just fire away.

Bob

[Hesh1956]

Richard welcome to the ANZLF!!!

[Alain]

Welcome aboard Richard!!!

Best luck to you M8!

[Richardl]

Hi all

Thanks for the welcome.

Hi again Martin! I just had a look at Graham's web site. Amazing stuff.

There must be a few Luthiers up North as well. There was a guitar and a mandolin in the "Ancient Kauri Kingdom showroom" when we visited earlier this year...made from swamp kauri. Absoulutely exquisit pieces of work (with price tags to match).

Regarding string types, which I suppose has an effect on the tension and construction techniques, I'd just like to start off with something simple that won't be too hard for my daughter to play. Guess I'm showing my ignorance!

OK maybe I'll try to learn a few chords but with my podgy little fingers, I doubt I'll get far.

Cheers

from overcast Palmy

[Kim]

Hey Richard,

Nice to have you with us and we look forward to you input. Feel free to ask questions here as most often the persons responding will learn a little more detail about the topic themselves in providing an answer.

Nylon strings are softer on the fingers and a Classical Guitar would be ideal for your daughter to learn on. As mentioned, Jim Williams book is a pretty basic nuts and bolts approach and includes full size plans for both a steel string (Spanish Heel) and a classical guitar. Kinkead's is a good approach but from memory only provides a plan for his OM size steel string.

Cheers

Kim

[kiwigeo]

My first classical was built using William's book as my promary reference and Campiano's book as a fill-in reference for some of the finer details that arent covered in William's book.

For tonewoods here are my reccommendations:

Top - spruce, Englemann or Sitka. Englemann is traditional for classicals but I used sitka on my first classical and managed to produce a nice sounding instrument. My current build has a Lutz Spruce top and will be a very interesting instrument when its finished.
Back and Sides - Indian Rosewood. Bends easily and you can often get cheap grade stuff if you shop around. I was lucky and managed to get a stach of opportunity grade IRW from LMI a few years back.
Neck - Spanish Cedar. Easy to work. Watch out for the dust it can cause problems if youre sensitive to the stuff.

Others in here will no doubt have other suggestions.

Luthiers in the North Island. The only one I know is Paddy Burgin in Wellington. Graham W will know of a few more.

Cheers Martin

[Serge]

Hello from Canada mate Richard, welcome to the ANZLF!!

You just found a great group of fine buddies to help you along in this beautiful endeavour, it is the best of hobbies, you'll see what i mean when no 1 is strung up and you do your first notes with her.

I started building a couple of years ago, i'm now building no 4 like brother Paul, you will have sleepless nights, splinters, blood, sweat and tears all over that first, well, a labor of love it is mate!

We're here for you!

Serge

[kiwigeo]

Richard (and others).

Allied Luthierie have a 10% discount running on their sale items. Theyve got a few nice Indian Rosewood back and Side sets for 90-100 $US that might be worth checking out. Might as well take advantage of the favourable NZ/Aus vs US exchange rate.

http://www.alliedlutherie.com/weekly6.htm

Cheers Martin

[Kim]

Thanks for the heads up Martin, but after the OLF swap meet I'm buggered. I like Allied though, must get me a batch of the new improved truss rods with the alternate pitch stainless threads. Hmmm, now there's an idea for a group buy, they have pretty good price breaks for quantity and I reckon I could swing something given that I'm such a cheeky bastard.

Maybe down the track??? PM me with expressions of interested so I will have some rough figures together when I give them a call

Cheers

Kim

[Dennis Leahy]

G'day folks

I have never built a guitar in my life ...

A few days ago I woke up with a little voice in my head...build a guitar Richard, build a guitar. ...

... My daughter is learning guitar so I suppose making something half decent for her is my motivation.

Richard, I am exactly one guitar past you (with 5 in-progress - it is a disease.) I suspect the passion to build may be your best asset. If you wanted only 1 guitar, then this endeavor would be more expensive (though more rewarding.) Once you build a few, the price of tooling up can be amortised...

From what I have read, it may be easier to create a very good first steel string guitar than a very good first classical guitar. (Just in case your daughter's fingers could handle a steel string somewhere down the road.)

I'm a member of 3 luthier's forums, and recommend to everyone that they gather the information from many sources. For example, there is a guy on the Luthierforum building his first classical, and he is doing a wonderful job of documenting the build process. (Lots of superb photos.) Wait til you see the rosette he made. Anyway, here's a link.

Welcome!

Dennis

[Lillian]

G'day folks

I have never built a guitar in my life and can't play one either. (Snip....)

A few days ago I woke up with a little voice in my head...build a guitar Richard, build a guitar. It hasn't gone away so I'm here (snip...)

Welcome Richard. No worries, you are among friends who suffer(ed) from the same malady as you. And there is not point in ignoring the voices. They only get louder. I've tried.

There isn't much in the archives here, but there's always someone who can answer you questions. And with that said, you may want to spend some time reading the archives at the OLF http://officialluthiersforum.com/ You will find that there is a preponderance of steel string builders there, but there are still a couple of builders who create beautiful classicals.

There is lots to read and lots to do before you even get started bending sides. Keep us posted and take pictures, lots of pictures. We're kinda visually oriented here.

[Richardl]

Hi again everyone

Thanks for all the further comments and welcomes. It always amazes me how helpful folks are on these forums. I had a similar experience with harp making. And dovetailed plane making for that matter...another addictive passtime.

Thanks for the link to Allied Lutherie Martin - there is certainly a bit to choose from. I'm probably not at the buying wood stage yet though - I'd best get me books and read for a while before lash out on materials, but I'll bear them in mind. I'll also try to contact some local builders to find out where they get their supplies. Importing stuff is a pain but often the only way - I had the same thing with clock parts, harp components even brass for planes.

After talking with a guitarist friend, she suggested a steel string may be a better place to start so I'm a bit undecided? Are the plans in the Kinkead book good for a first instrument or are the Williams plans better? The Kinkead is a middle of the range size from my limited understanding...OM? Maybe I'll get both books, they are cheap enough on Amazon!

I'll check out the other sites suggested too when I have a bit of time. Thanks for those.

Cheers from calm and sunny (for real...its a miracle, it is a Monday though) Palmy

Richard

[Richardl]

G'day folks

I have never built a guitar in my life ...

A few days ago I woke up with a little voice in my head...build a guitar Richard, build a guitar. ...

... My daughter is learning guitar so I suppose making something half decent for her is my motivation.

Richard, I am exactly one guitar past you (with 5 in-progress - it is a disease.) I suspect the passion to build may be your best asset. If you wanted only 1 guitar, then this endeavor would be more expensive (though more rewarding.) Once you build a few, the price of tooling up can be amortised...

From what I have read, it may be easier to create a very good first steel string guitar than a very good first classical guitar. (Just in case your daughter's fingers could handle a steel string somewhere down the road.)

I'm a member of 3 luthier's forums, and recommend to everyone that they gather the information from many sources. For example, there is a guy on the Luthierforum building his first classical, and he is doing a wonderful job of documenting the build process. (Lots of superb photos.) Wait til you see the rosette he made. Anyway, here's a link.

Welcome!

Dennis

Dennis
I've just logged into the link you sent, that is the most amazing thread. No only is the guy a perfectionist, he must have a great workshop...he certainly has all the nice tools. I'm starting to feel out of my depth!

Cheers from gloriously sunny Palmy

[Dennis Leahy]

Dennis
I've just logged into the link you sent, that is the most amazing thread. No only is the guy a perfectionist, he must have a great workshop...he certainly has all the nice tools. I'm starting to feel out of my depth!

Cheers from gloriously sunny Palmy

Hi Richard,

Erik makes Hesh look like a slob! (You probably don't know what that means yet - Hesh is rather a neatnik.)

Erik is bound and determined to
1.) not make any mistakes on his first guitar and end up with a superb guitar - I get that not by his words but by his actions.
2.) provide excellent documentation of the entire journey, including superb photography.

He's using hand tools where I would use power tools, which means it will take him a lot longer, but he is having a wonderful journey doing it his way.

In contrast, there's another guy at the Luthierforum - Manubes, from Spain - who has posted some of his classical guitar building process. He is a beginner luthier in a country rich in luthier tradition and history, but where the "masters" are secretive. He loves these online forums. Anyway, like Erik, Manubes is building with hand tools, but the difference in the quality of the hand tools is astounding - literally from Erik's finest Lie-Nielsen hand planes to Manubes' handmade wooden planes made from scraps. So, don't worry about being out of your depth, and don't worry about the tools. Having built a few harps, you probably have many of the tools you'll need, and you can decide which of the luthier's specialty tools you want or need.

I really think this is more about passion and dreams than anything else. Have fun with this!

Dennis

[Richardl]

Thanks Dennis

Erik's thread is, I suppose, exceptional. I've snooped about woodwork forums for a year or two and never seen anything like it. I'd be proud to hang that first jig he made on my lounge wall and some of his photos would make it into our local art gallery.

I'm really looking forward to all my books arriving although Erik's thread is almost a book in itself. I guess there must be simpler ways to tackle things and you're right, I do have many of the essential powder and hand tools. Many picked up second hand and lovingly restored.

I'm sure I'll be back with plenty of questions once I start reading.

Can't wait to start really! So many things to make, so little time!! I'll have to figure how to post pictures on this forum next.

Cheers from a calm and peaceful Palmy...although there is another front on its way!

[Hesh1956]

Hi Richard - after reading this thread I would agree that you may wish to start with a steel string guitar. As mentioned they are a bit easier to construct and the knowledge base that will be available to you is substantially greater.

Perhaps most important is your very honorable intent for this guitar and that is to give it to your daughter and for her to learn how to play. Good show M8!

Although the strings on a steel string are a bit more difficult for a new player to get used to the neck is substantially thinner and better suited for smaller hands. In addition, not knowing the age of your daughter, I suspect that she will be a fan of more contemporary music over say Bach. If this is the case the music that she loves is more likely to be written for steel string and this will be an additional motivation for her to stick with learning to play the guitar. Smoke on the Water sounds terrible on a classical......

Also, I am not a fan of ANY of the books out there on guitar building. In some cases the methods described are very dated and even the authors have substantially changed their own methods since then - Cumpiano is an example of this. When I started I bought all the books and read them and it nearly discouraged me right away from guitar building.

What was most helpful was seeing "hands on" videos of how to build a steel string guitar. Several are available from folks like Robbie O'Brien, Frank Finnichio, and Stew-Mac (the largest supplier of guitar repair shop tools in the world).

Lastly I would also recommend a kit for the first guitar and a kit that comes with one of the instructional videos mentioned above. There is a tremendous amount of knowledge to learn when building your early guitars. It's also been said that building your own will never save you any money because of the start-up costs that may include jigs, tools, travels around the world to find wood (just kidding but some of us have done this) etc.

Regardless of if it is a kit or a scratch build the potential for creating a great sounding first guitar is there. For me, being rather thick at times, I learn best by doing things as often as possible. This meant that for my own education I decided to build 10 guitars before I ever considered selling them. When I got to 10 guitars I decided to build 10 more. The reason for this is that I have found along the way that even though I have learned a tremendous amount about guitar building and my guitars sound great if I do say so myself there is always more to learn, new things to try etc. in search of the killer guitar.

Regarding bending there are a couple of tutorials available on another forum that is currently down because someone swore..... When it's back up I will post a link to it for you.

[Dennis Leahy]

...What was most helpful was seeing "hands on" videos of how to build a steel string guitar. Several are available from folks like Robbie O'Brien, Frank Finnichio, and Stew-Mac ...

Lastly I would also recommend a kit for the first guitar and a kit that comes with one of the instructional videos mentioned above. ...

Although East Indian Rosewood and Walnut are said to be 2 of the easiest woods to bend (and therefore good for a first shot, because of a high success rate in bending), I'll bet Tim Spittle could put together a great kit for you, using mostly local materials. Rather than the expense and the bending risks of the highly figured rare woods, I'll bet Tim has some great stuff that he could gather that would cost less than a kit from a major luthier supply house. And, you'd have a "home grown" guitar.

In this sense of the word "kit", it would simply be a box complete with the materials to build a guitar, not a "serviced kit" with pre-bent sides or something.

...on another forum that is currently down because someone swore.....

One of the Seven Dwarfs pissed off again?

Dennis

[Hesh1956]

Dennis that is a GREAT idea to have Tim put together a kit of indigenous woods/materials.

I would add that the Tiger Myrtle that I built with bent like walnut. Perhaps some myrtle with out the Tiger to keep the cost down.

[BillyT]

I myself woke up one morning a few years ago, with the imperative in my head that I had to buy a guitar and learn how to play it. I thought this was kinda dumb, but three weeks later I still HAD to do it.

Same thing happened to me 35 years ago! I still have to do it!

[Graham W]

Hi Richard

Welcome to the forum. I'm new here to, in fact this is my first response.

I highly recommend the Cumpiano Natelson book - they even tell you how to sharpen your chisels! You can spend a lot of time trying to find ideal wood. For a classical you'll probably be looking at rosewood and spruce? I'd suggest that the quickest, easiest answer is to visit www.stewmac.com and buy from them. They supply a huge range of tools, woods, books and parts. They deliver within 7 days - I've gotten all sorts of stuff from them over the years and found them excellent to deal with. Have a look at their site, but leave yourself plenty of time! Because pretty much all of the really good woods are imported you may find local luthiers reluctant to part with their treasures. You may be lucky, as I was, and find a retired cabinet maker with some good woods to sell, but be sure you get quarter sawn no matter what type of wood you get.

First things first - get the Cumpiano and Natelson book - it's available through StewMac - and have a good read. See if you can find someone in Palmy who's building instruments - you'd be surprised how many people have a go - and if you're ever in Christchurch look me up I'll help where I can.

I hope this is some help. Good luck!

Graham

[kiwigeo]

Hi Graham,

It looks like Im off to New Zealand next week to do a job off the coast of Taranaki. If I have time Ill be wining through Christchurch to check up on the old man and the rest of the relies. Would love to catch up with you while Im in town. Ill drop you a PM when I know the dates Ill be in town.

Will have to go through my old box of LPs and see if I can find a Lutha LP cover for you to sign!

Cheers Martin

[Richardl]

Hi folks

Thanks for all the input!

G'day Hesh, my daughter is nearly 10 - sounds like a steel string is the way to go - although I'm sure she would like Bach, her favorite is Brooke Fraser, a local singer. Regarding the books, they are winging their way already.

I have found a U-tube site demonstrating bending http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jf8J6rt6ng

Any other links - I'd be glad to get them. Hadn't thought of videos.

Regarding the cost, as long as it doesn't get astronomical, I'm really in it to enjoy learning new techniques and overcoming new challenges. My 1st harp cost over $1000 to make (and is insured for a lot more) so I hope setting up this endeavour won't be much more.

Dennis, I certainly like the idea of getting all the wood in one go in a sort of kit form. Tim's name has come up several times - he must be a good bloke to deal with.

Graham, thanks for the sugestions. I'll check out the site and compare importing from the USA versus Australia. Do NZ customs cause any problems with importing timber? I don't know many cabinet makers who would have anthing but pine and rimu I'm afraid. I have obtained timber through Timspec before and there is Lennards in Wellington. Perhaps for a first instrument I'd be as well to go for timber chosen for the job by someone who knows what they are doing, i.e. Tim Spittle, Stewmac or one of the others who's links I have been given. After that I can go hunting.

I hadn't thought of hounding luthiers, although I suppose if somone had obtained some not quite up to scratch timber that they had decided not to use...

Thanks for the invite too, if I'm ever down that way I'd love to pop in. I haven't found any builders locally through the local woodworkers guild but will keep enquiring.

Cheers from a damp Palmy

Richard