Some advice / comments please

[sebastiaan56]

One of my favourite pages is this one. http://www.crane.gr.jp/MakingGuitarZero/e_index.html by Makoto Tsuruta. For my next build Im looking at the plan for this instrument http://www.crane.gr.jp/CRANE_etc/A007_L ... _CRANE.jpg which is A007 in his series of drawings.

Im planning to use WA Sheoak back and sides (unless you can find me some of that Monterey Cypress Tim...). and Spruce top My question is about the bracing. Im tempted to go "H" bracing with a patch around the soundhole. So waddya reckon, will that be enough to make it a steel string instrument if I add a bridge patch? I think the long bars will need to be substantial but aside from that it should be reasonably straightforward.

Sebastiaan

[graham mcdonald]

My only thought would be if you wanted to make a small bodied steel string, go for a Martin style 2 size, their smallest body with a standard scale. Very elegant little guitars. I have a very worn 1927 2-17 all mahogany. The 2-17 from the late 20s were Martin's first instrument that was fitted with steel strings at the factory.

cheers

graham

[Allen]

That's a really interesting looking instrument. I'm quite taken with the oblong sound hole, and the overall design. Not having a clue about ladder braced instruments I'l looking froward to hearing what the more experienced have to say about this.

[jeffhigh]

To me it does not make sense to use the longitudinal bars. Look at the cracks in the top alongside the bars, you would be just setting yourself up for a failure.

By all means use the outline and appearance of the instrument, it is a very attractive design to my eyes too, but use your own bracing system whether it be X or ladder.

I don't think this guy has too much of a clue when it comes to bracing, just look at the extent of the bracing he puts on the back.(six very sturdy crossbars on a parlor size back?)

I think he is just copying old cheap japanese guitars from a period where they did not have the current expertise in guitar building

[graham mcdonald]

I think you will find the original is an early 19th century French instrument. There was lots of experimentation with bracing patterns in that period. The longitudinal braces will certainly stop any rotation of the bridge, but they aren't adding any cross-grain stiffness at all, which is what both an X brace and a fan bracing are doing. A fairly important part of controlling the sound of the instrument

cheers

graham

[Dave White]

Sebastiann,

From the photo it looks as though (at some time or originally) there were also three ladder braces - one below the bridgeplate, one below the soundhole and one in the upper bout area. This arrangement with the two long bars is pretty common in early American parlours, Stellas etc and may well have been for early European instruments. The lower bout width is only around 8" or so so I don't think the bracing needs to be substantial.

Give Colin a pm - he has a lot of experience restoring instruments such as these and I think he once posted a picture of one with similar bracing that he had restored.

[sebastiaan56]

Thanks for the comments guys,

Dave I will PM colin as you have suggested.

Allen, the aesthetics are why i want to try it, its looks very elegant to me. It wouldnt work with too much bling but the oval hole and slim design do it for me.

Jeff, Im quite taken by the detail that this guy puts into his planning. Check out further down the page and you will see photos of an Ramirez from the inside, very revealing, particularly the kerfing (check for the workmanship of the kerfs) and the gluing. The guitar is La Prevotte Ca.1820, so the bracing is bound to be different. see http://www.crane.gr.jp/CRANE_etc/CRANE_Plan_E.html fascinating stuff.

[jeffhigh]

I agree Sebastian his plans are beautiful
I just found it hard to see past the huge size and quantity of back bracing on A002. that is never warranted unless you want to be able to stand on the thing.
Can't quite see the purpose in an exact replica of a bracing design that is basically flawed.
The plans are a good resouce though, thanks for sharing it.

[jeffhigh]

Those photos of the Ramirez are great

[DarwinStrings]

Hi Sebastiaan

If you consider that this instrument was designed for about 40kg of string tension(maybe less) and you are wanting to put that up to (at a guess based on the short scale) about 70kg then I think you may need to consider more than just the bridge wanting to rotate. I would be worried that the whole thing will want to fold up. It looks like the back is carved and that will help.

I am with Jeff on those longitudinal braces, I would at least want to angle them off being parallel to the soundboard grain, Bridge patch sounds good, spreading the load with a transom or two can't hurt.

Will you put those gentle scallops in the fret board they do look good.

Jim

[kiwigeo]

Maybe Im missing somehting here.....but why do you want to put steel strings on this instrument. This guitar wasnt designed for steel strings.

If you havent made a classical before then this could be a good place to start.

Cheers Martin

[sebastiaan56]

Here are some other sources for Laprevotte guitars, seems like he was a violin maker hence the carved back and the two tone bars.

http://www.earlyguitar.com/main/page_fr ... _1835.html

http://www.guitarcentre.com.au/19thcent ... rovetC.jpg

and http://www.ianwatchorn.com.au/IWAWEB-Co ... evotte.htm

Does anyone know Ian Watchorn, an intro would be easier than a cold email.

Martin, you are right, the original strings were probably gut and wound brass, steel is probably over the top without substantial modification to the design. In various notes I have read "a sweet, rich tone" but I dont know what strings are being used. Personally I think the world already has plenty of Ramirez / Torres copies and I would like to try something different rather then compare myself to far superior builders. My other thought is a Maccaferri style, but i really like this guitar.

Has anyone used Nylgut strings?

[ap404]

Sebastiaan,

I have been ogling old romantic era guitars on the net for a while, wondering about one day doing a steel string update of one of those shapes. I haven't got any technical advice for you, I'm just going to be watching with interest. As far as aesthetic advice, I reckon you're onto something really worthwhile. I have always loved the paddle headstock and can imagine it made with high quality banjo planetary tuners or PegHeads.

I've heard good things about nylgut, but it's all second hand.

What about silk and steel strings? I've played them and think the tension would be good for your project.

Cheers, AP

[sebastiaan56]

Thanks for the idea AP, do you have a source for these strings?

The plan and extant instruments call for a scalloped fretboard. Has anyone made one? How did you do it?, How would you do it? My only sensible thought is a series of radiused curved rods, perhaps out of dowel, wrapped in 180 grit.

[ap404]

Re : Silk And Steel ... Any place that sells Martin brand strings should be able to begrudgingly order them in for you or there's always the innernet. I've played them on little old parlour guitars and they feel very slinky, but I've never bought them personally. Somone else here is bound to have more experience with them ... ?

Cheers, AP

PS : As a heavy handed finger picker I'd definitely skip the scallops in the interest of intonation, it depends who's going to be playing the guitar I suppose.

[kiwigeo]

Seb,

Heres a tutorial on scalloping the fretboard on an electric.

http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/scal1.htm

Cheers Martin

The plan and extant instruments call for a scalloped fretboard. Has anyone made one? How did you do it?, How would you do it? My only sensible thought is a series of radiused curved rods, perhaps out of dowel, wrapped in 180 grit.

[sebastiaan56]

Thanks Martin,

hmmm I need another instrument of wood torture...