Gday Guys,
I've been playing a fair bit of percussive kinda stuff lately (think Eric Roche, Newton Faulkner, etc) and I'm worried I'm going to damage my Maton (look at Tommy Emmanuel's!).
So I've been thinking a bit this week about the creation of a percussion styled guitar.
Like an OM kind of shape, but with some extra bracing behind the bridge and a clear pickguard behind the bridge. (possibly the same setup above the end of the fretboard too).
How do you think this would work? I was thinking maybe the extra bracing may make the tone and volume a bit dull, and the big chunk of pickguard may be an issue too?
Nick Benjamin has built a percussive guitar but there's not much information about it.
I know a lot of flamenco styled guitars have big pickguards above and below the soundhole, so it does work.
Let me know what you think!
Josh.
Newton playing 'Teardrop' by Massive Attack-
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=rjT86g9gTKk
Eric showing how his percussive playing developed
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=SdcQyOEnHv8
Percussion Guitar.
Percussion Guitar.
Josh.
Josh,
Not that I have any qualification so take my suggestion for what it is worth. How about a double X brace top. Tuck the legs of the main X into the lining both at the upper and lower bout and have the secondary X positioned between the legs of the main X in the lower bout with it's upper legs running across the outer ends of the bridge plate and then tucking into the legs of the main X. That should hold up well to a belting, in fact it is how some of the early Maton's and Gibson's were braced.
Cheers
Kim
Not that I have any qualification so take my suggestion for what it is worth. How about a double X brace top. Tuck the legs of the main X into the lining both at the upper and lower bout and have the secondary X positioned between the legs of the main X in the lower bout with it's upper legs running across the outer ends of the bridge plate and then tucking into the legs of the main X. That should hold up well to a belting, in fact it is how some of the early Maton's and Gibson's were braced.
Cheers
Kim
Sort of Josh, that is one configuration that certainly may work OK. But I was thinking the secondary X could be tighter having the ends running "across or over the top of the very ends of the bridge plate and tucking "into" the main X a little closer to the lap joint and NOT following through to the linings.
Your image shows the upper legs of the secondary X spread at about 90deg and running right across the main X introducing two extra lap joints to the construction that I would be concerned may prove to be be week points...
Did you just noticed all the Xing that has been going on in this conversation? I don't think I have used the letter X so much in one short passage in my life, exciting stuff to be sure.
Cheers
Kim
Your image shows the upper legs of the secondary X spread at about 90deg and running right across the main X introducing two extra lap joints to the construction that I would be concerned may prove to be be week points...
Did you just noticed all the Xing that has been going on in this conversation? I don't think I have used the letter X so much in one short passage in my life, exciting stuff to be sure.
Cheers
Kim
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ozziebluesman
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Hey Josh here is my old Regal Parlor I was talking about. Its from the 1950s and through research on the internet have identified that this was built with tap panels originally. That's about all I can tell you about the guitar. It has a cedr top and very beefy ladder brace system. The guitar has stood the tests of time. I have a bridge plate k&k pickup installed. It is fune to mix percussion with chords and riffs. Especially in an open d tuning.
I have a sound file of the guitar if you want a listen. Just an old blues riff with no percussion. I like to add percussion in my playing style on acoustic guitar!
Cheers
Alan
I have a sound file of the guitar if you want a listen. Just an old blues riff with no percussion. I like to add percussion in my playing style on acoustic guitar!
Cheers
Alan
This is only a theory from and engineering point of view and may be a bad idea if you are building a beat it up guitar, so please feel free to jump in and knock it on the head if I am off the mark. There are two ways to go when you are designing a structure to withstand punishment beyond the usual. First is to make it so strong and rigid that it won’t move thus eliminating the chance of failure the other is to make it flexible enough to bounce back as they do with skyscrapers in earthquake zones. Perhaps an alternative to adding tap plates and stronger bracing would be to make the top flexible and avoid rigid joints that could crack if given a good bash… a steel string flamenco?
I have a Spanish friend who plays flamenco and I flinch at the abuse he seems to inflict on his very lovely (and most likely expensive) sixties Jose Ramirez. I had a poke around inside this guitar with a light and mirror and was amazed at how lightly braced it was. The fan braces were only about 5mm wide and 4mm high, it had a diagonal brace from the upper bout to the top of the lower bout, both this diagonal brace and the cross braces had 60mm notches cut out of the glued edge on the treble side, these aligned down the length of the guitar (meaning part of a fan brace was only thing glued to a 60mm wide strip of the top running the full length of the guitar on the treble side). Like many flamenco players he uses a sheet of laminating plastic to protect the top, this goes under the strings in front of the bridge and covers the area above and below the strings (not much more than a sheet of A4 document laminating plastic). Some flamenco guitars also have extra small braces and thin flat spruce plates glued at the main hit points, this seems to be done more for the sound when hitting the top rather than the sound when playing it or a need for reinforcing.
While some of these flamenco guys seem to be smashing their guitars, when you really watch them they aren’t hitting them all that hard. This is a great little clip of a guy with a nice very organic flamenco style; you can see the plastic scratch protector on the top. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJuBeKDG9Y0&feature
I have a Spanish friend who plays flamenco and I flinch at the abuse he seems to inflict on his very lovely (and most likely expensive) sixties Jose Ramirez. I had a poke around inside this guitar with a light and mirror and was amazed at how lightly braced it was. The fan braces were only about 5mm wide and 4mm high, it had a diagonal brace from the upper bout to the top of the lower bout, both this diagonal brace and the cross braces had 60mm notches cut out of the glued edge on the treble side, these aligned down the length of the guitar (meaning part of a fan brace was only thing glued to a 60mm wide strip of the top running the full length of the guitar on the treble side). Like many flamenco players he uses a sheet of laminating plastic to protect the top, this goes under the strings in front of the bridge and covers the area above and below the strings (not much more than a sheet of A4 document laminating plastic). Some flamenco guitars also have extra small braces and thin flat spruce plates glued at the main hit points, this seems to be done more for the sound when hitting the top rather than the sound when playing it or a need for reinforcing.
While some of these flamenco guys seem to be smashing their guitars, when you really watch them they aren’t hitting them all that hard. This is a great little clip of a guy with a nice very organic flamenco style; you can see the plastic scratch protector on the top. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJuBeKDG9Y0&feature
John Butler uses his Maton's for his unique style which includes percussive playing. His guitars are beat up looking but as far as I know are stock.
I would think the main problem would be crushing grain and wear in the areas you tap rather than braces collapsing so clear pick gaurds in those areas may help distribute the force a little and also prevent mechanical wear.
If you need to bash the guitar that hard that the top might collapse to get the sound you want it could be time to get some pickups. And just face that fact that guitars used this way have a more limited life span.
See my favourite JB song. Twice because he plays it differently each time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsnFvEQY ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT-Xh2oI ... re=related
Dom
I would think the main problem would be crushing grain and wear in the areas you tap rather than braces collapsing so clear pick gaurds in those areas may help distribute the force a little and also prevent mechanical wear.
If you need to bash the guitar that hard that the top might collapse to get the sound you want it could be time to get some pickups. And just face that fact that guitars used this way have a more limited life span.
See my favourite JB song. Twice because he plays it differently each time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsnFvEQY ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT-Xh2oI ... re=related
Dom
You can bomb the world to pieces,
but you can't bomb the world to peace!
but you can't bomb the world to peace!
I watched an interview with Tommy E, when the host ask him how old his beat up Maton was Tommy replied that the guitar was not that old, that he only gets around 2 years out of a guitar. The host was quite surprised and pointing to the area around the bridge that was clearly denuded of any finish he ask, "so this guitar is only 2 years old?" To which Tommy relied, "No, less than that, but we take a bit of sandpaper and sand off the finish so I can get the effect I want in some of the songs I do when I drag the pick across the guitar top.
The point hear is just because his guitars look beaten up it is probably not because he bashes the crap out of them. I don't think his percussive style is that heavy. Rather I think he probably relies upon some strategically placed K&K style piezo disk to get volume from his percussion technique.
Cheers
Kim
The point hear is just because his guitars look beaten up it is probably not because he bashes the crap out of them. I don't think his percussive style is that heavy. Rather I think he probably relies upon some strategically placed K&K style piezo disk to get volume from his percussion technique.
Cheers
Kim
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Bob Connor
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Hi Josh
If this instrument is to be used essentially as an amplified instrument. ie with a pickup, I would build it with a thicker top and some type of wood that's renowned for it's hardness , for instance Red Spruce. Or a hardwood.
If you want retain a Spruce sort of a look Celery Top Pine might work. (it's actually a hardwood)
Maton build all of their guitars with a 3.2 mm top which is quite thick compared with how I build anyway, so I'd aim for around that sort of thickness.
If it'll be played through a PA the top thickness won't be an issue, in fact it'll be a benefit, as lightly built acoustic guitars tend to be a bit lively when played at higher volumes. (and they tend to get knocked about when gigging)
There's a good reason that I still use my Takamine for live work. It's got a Maple top, is built like a brick s**thouse and sounds fine through a PA. Acoustically though it's a dog.
I don't know what you want to do with the instrument exactly but it might be worth bearing some of this in mind.
If this instrument is to be used essentially as an amplified instrument. ie with a pickup, I would build it with a thicker top and some type of wood that's renowned for it's hardness , for instance Red Spruce. Or a hardwood.
If you want retain a Spruce sort of a look Celery Top Pine might work. (it's actually a hardwood)
Maton build all of their guitars with a 3.2 mm top which is quite thick compared with how I build anyway, so I'd aim for around that sort of thickness.
If it'll be played through a PA the top thickness won't be an issue, in fact it'll be a benefit, as lightly built acoustic guitars tend to be a bit lively when played at higher volumes. (and they tend to get knocked about when gigging)
There's a good reason that I still use my Takamine for live work. It's got a Maple top, is built like a brick s**thouse and sounds fine through a PA. Acoustically though it's a dog.
I don't know what you want to do with the instrument exactly but it might be worth bearing some of this in mind.
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