Epoxy

[gratay]

I want to buy some epoxy to install my truss-rod into the channel.

I don't really want to buy a large quantity like the West systems. because its the only part of the build I need epoxy for..
Does anyone know of a suitable brand that maybe does a syringe style that measures the right amount of A and B that would work for that task?

Failing that , I'll just get some west systems or Z-poxy
or is there any other glue/material that would be good for bonding a truss-rod to timber?

thanks. Grant

[Kim]

Araldite from Bunnies will work fine and it's in a syringe.

Cheers

Kim

[Paul B]

http://www.whitworths.com.au/main_home.asp has international HT9000 marine epoxy. This the only stuff I use. You can get small quantities (250ml) for $20 or so plus $10 for the hardener. They also have metered pumps available that screw onto to the bottles, so it's just a matter of one pump of hardener and one pump of epoxy into the cup and stir. Easy.

International is the local equivalent of West System - they're both marine epoxies with very similar properties. The International stuff is easier to find down at the shops though. I used this stuff a lot when I was building kayaks, the Yank kayak forums said West System, but the builders here use this stuff for the same result.

[Bob Connor]

We use Araldite for truss rods and fingerboards.

[Paul B]

I've had problems with araldite not fully hardening. I only used it once - one of those syringe things. Maybe it was old, or maybe it doesn't get real hard like the marine stuff?

[kiwigeo]

Dont use Z-poxy. Its a finishing resin and not designed for adhering work.

[kiwigeo]

Kims on the money,

If its one of those double acting truss rods we bought from LMI recently, just roughen up the top of the metal bar, fit the rod in the slot and then fit the wooden fillet coated with araldite on sides and bottom of same.

Watch you dont use too much Araldite on the fillet or it might get down into the trussie threads.

Cheers Martin

Araldite from Bunnies will work fine and it's in a syringe.

Cheers

Kim

[graham mcdonald]

Z-Poxy make a range of epoxies, not just the finishing resin. I wouldn't use Araldite for anything, other than the 5 minute stuff for inlay work. It always seems a bit rubbery.

I use a 30 minute NHP epoxy, bought from a model plane shop (who are a good source for stuff like this). About the only thing I use it for is gluing carbonfiber bars in mandolin necks, fingerboards and the ocassional CF cloth re-enforcement on bracing. The NHP is a 50/50 mix and seems quite tolerant in the mixing proportions.

For truss rods I route a slot a couple of mm deeper than the rod and titebond in a fairly tightly fitting capping strip, preferably the same wood as the neck, about 3mm high and clamped down to sandwich the rod in place. Then plane it down to the height of the neck surface. The rod itself doesn't have to be glued in place and once the fingerboard is on, the rod is going to be pretty tightly held top and bottom. Adding the capping strip gets rid of any possibility of vertical slack in the rod fitting, which is Not Good. (I only did it once!)

Good to know about the International boat building epoxy

cheers

graham

[gratay]

thanks for all the advice everyone.
I may be crazy but have routed the slot so the truss-rod is flush with the neck and no filler piece. It does fit very flush so I'm hoping with some tension on the rod that no rattles will occur.

So, to clarify ...I will only be using whatever product I choose on the walls of the truss-rod slot to bond the truss-rod to the walls of the slot and hopefully eliminate any problems..

To be on the safe side I think next time I will just go the filler piece route but I don't want to recut the slot now as it will be hard to set up again as the necks tapered and mostly shaped.

[graham mcdonald]

I can't see why you would want to bond the rod to the walls of the slot. If it fits neatly in the slot, ie doesn't slop around at all - contacting along its entire length top and bottom, it depends on being able to flex a little to work. Just put it in and glue the fingerboard on.

cheers

graham

[gratay]

I can't see why you would want to bond the rod to the walls of the slot. If it fits neatly in the slot, ie doesn't slop around at all - contacting along its entire length top and bottom, it depends on being able to flex a little to work. Just put it in and glue the fingerboard on.

cheers

graham

now theres a sensible point....

For no other reason other than,
I have read so much about people using epoxy to install their truss-rods, which is the reason I thought I better do it..

But, I must admit it doesn't make much sense to me to glue it considering how the truss rod is supposed to work.

maybe some others will weigh in with their reasons for doing it?

[Allen]

For the way your going to install the rod, I would put a couple of very small dollops of silicon sealer or equivalent in the bottom of the truss rod channel if I felt that a rattle was a possibility. The silicon sealer will have lots of give when you adjust the rod, but will dampen any rattles or buzz.

I've got a small tube with a small applicator tip that I had for sealing leaks around the windows of the caravan. Be VERY CAREFUL not to get any silicon anywhere else or your going to be cursing me.

For what it's worth. I've got a tube of Araldite that is used for a very few applications, and I've had it not fully harden as well. It's also pretty bloody expensive for the amount that you get in that little syringe. I bought the WEST Systems. I think it was around the $50 mark, and it's done 10 guitars now, from gluing up necks, filling inlay, and pore filling. Still have 1/2 left, so you do get a lot of milage out of it.

[Craig]

My method has been to route a channel deep enough for the rods , which isn't quite 3/8 ". I then carve out a little extra at both ends for the little square end sections to fit snuggly .
I place a tiny drop of 5 min epoxy ( finishes harder than 24 hour stuff ) , at the bottom of those little end sections , and when it's nearly set ,push the rod in place flush with neck( wax the rod ends ) , to create perfect fitting little floors for the rod to bear against , yet not glued in place. Remove the rod once again when the glue has set.

I've also placed two small drops of silicone under the round bar 1/3 and 2/3 the length of the rod ,as insurance against any sort of buzzing . Probably not necessary as the rods are covered in rubber.

As per L.M.I. instructions , I haven't bothered with a filler strip. They say there is no need and allows me to safley have a 20mm thick neck , which is what I'm after.

I've been using Zpoxy 30 minute epoxy to glue the fretboard. I lay a strip of 5/8 " wide masking tape over the trussrod strip before laying on the glue. Once the tape is removed it leaves the rod area to be free of glue , but with enough glue there to spread itself close to the rod area. I'm with Graham and don't think glue should be any where near the rod itself , leaving it free to do it's job, and easier rod removal should that ever be required.

Cheers guys

[graham mcdonald]

I've never bought a truss rod, just made them in the way Jim Williams taught me 25 years ago, as much because the available ready-made ones are not the right length for the instruments I build. A length of 3/16" mild steel rod, a 10-32 die, a 1/2 x 1/4" block of brass and half an hour is all that is needed. Jim always wrapped his in fiberglass re-enforced tape, but I just put some heat shrink around them and route a press-fit slot a couple of mm deeper as I mentioned before.

Any neck re-enforcement will work better the deeper in the neck it is, and even with a 12mm deep slot, that still leaves around 4mm under the rod at the thinnest part of the neck. I wouldn't put anything under the rod as I think it is essential that the rod is in full contact top and bottom along its entire length, whether the top surface is a capping strip or the fingerboard itself. What you are trying to do with the rod is control the neck relief and trying to do that without full contact along the length of the rod would be asking for trouble I would suggest. How much neck relief you want is one of those endlessly debated topics. I go for as little as possible, but I know there are those who believe in more.

cheers

graham

[kiwigeo]

Graham...Ive just noticed your new Avatar. As well as wearing a mask and hood am I also to assume that you wear your underpants over your clothes?????

Im going to have to consult with my fellow moderators first but theres a very good chance were going to have to ban you.

Cheers Martin

[graham mcdonald]

You dare insult the Ghost Who Walks!

That is one of the proper early Raymond Moore drawn Phantoms from the late 30s or early 40s. Magic stuff

cheers

graham

[matthew]

Araldite from Bunnies comes in 5 minute style, (white when mixed) and it's this one that is rubbery. But it sticks well, probably OK for trussrods if you want a bit of give.

The other araldite (yellow when mixed) takes 24 hours to harden and it does get much harder and stronger.

[Taffy Evans]

I'm a bit late again but what the heck I'm here now.
I've made my own rods and set them in the neck the same as Graham mentioned earlier [for about the same number of years]. Only I wrap mine in aluminium foil sticky backed tape. I can gauge the thickness of the rod, for a snug fit, by how close I do the winding.

I have a question though. Any suggestions how one would remove a fingerboard or indeed the rod where epoxy has been used. Any special tricks or do I use the same process as for Titebond?

I did not know that some rods and fingerboards are glued with epoxy, Its a repair that crops up from time to time and I'd like to be forwarnd.

[kiwigeo]

Ive undone a few epoxy joints using pallette knife heated with a heat gun.

[Kim]

Taffy,

Most epoxies we use will release with heat well before PVA. As an example, for a broken headstock repair, I will only use epoxy if it is required for it's gap filling properties in the situation where there may be a fair bit of splintering and breakout where it snapped. If the break is clean and the pieces come together well, I will always choose HHG over epoxy not just because it's easy to clean up, but mostly because it is more heat resistant than standard epoxy.

I say 'standard' epoxy because there is specialised applications outside of lutherie where 'heat resistant' epoxy is used and this stuff can withstand quite dramatic temperatures. To release standard epoxy it is simply the tried and tested method of heat + patience + steadily working in of a thin spatula blade = release. A good tool to apply heat is a silicon heat blanket or you can alternate 2 billets of alloy shaped for the job, one billet heats the work piece, while the other is reheating. The best thing is to glue some scrap together and try it out for yourself.

P.S. As for 5 min Areldite, I will not use it for anything on an instrument. 24hr stuff is fine, you must however mix with care even with the syringe. The 2 components are of a differnt viscosity. Because of this is very easy to angle the plunger from the back and skew the pistons as you squeeze the glue from the syringe as one side flows more quickly than the other. If this happens, then chances are that you WILL end up with a softer mix.

If you go steady when squeezing out the glue allowing the thicker part to keep up, and you watch carefully at that the back of the plunger, where your thumb sits, ensuring that it pushes straight into the syringe, you will be fine. It is also easy to trick yourself by attempting to judge the mix by the 'pool' size of the two components onto a mixing board, as I said, one part is less viscous than the other so it will naturally flow out into a larger pool much faster.

Cheers

Kim

[kiwigeo]

Hey Kimbo,

When you get bored with those hose clamps you might have a play around with some epoxy.

[Kim]

There's some things that are just too hard even for epoxy Martin.

[Taffy Evans]

Thanks for the info Kim.

[Nick Payne]

The whole thing was done using slow-setting Araldite. I built it in 1976 in the middle of a bout of boat-building, and apart from getting bookmatched pairs of spruce and rosewood for the soundboard and back/sides, all the rest of the timber was selected from what I had accumulated for boats, as was the glue and finish. The kerfing, struts, and braces are Oregon pine, neck and bindings are Meranti, fingerboard and bridge are Jarrah. The finish is two-pack catalyzing marine polyurethane, cut back with wet and dry and then semi-polished. The nut and saddle are ivory from an old broken cigar cutter.

And although it's a pretty rough-looking guitar, it sounds great. Every guitar teacher I've ever had has really liked both the tone and volume from the instrument.

It's also had the occasional unintended torture test, such as the time it fell down a flight of concrete steps. That put a sizeable dent in the binding of the soundboard in the lower bout, but the structural integrity of the instrument was unimpaired.