Rope bindings advice please

[Petecane]

I like the old style rope bindings applied to some of the old Nunes Ukuleles.
Cannot seem to find anything similar that is obtainable.
Can anybody please give me some advice on how this striking binding was made?
I would like to have a go.
At a guess I woukd say that alternating coloured strips of wood were set and glued together at 45 deg to form a ladder and then the whole sawn into strips?
Or laid at one after the other perpendicularly and sawn at 45 deg?
I akso need thin sheets of veneer to edge the " rope".
Available in Australia?
Pete

[kiwigeo]

Time to start using the forum's search feature Pete

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8251&p=88361&hilit= ... ing#p88361

I like the old style rope bindings applied to some of the old Nunes Ukuleles.
Cannot seem to find anything similar that is obtainable.
Can anybody please give me some advice on how this striking binding was made?
I would like to have a go.
At a guess I woukd say that alternating coloured strips of wood were set and glued together at 45 deg to form a ladder and then the whole sawn into strips?
Or laid at one after the other perpendicularly and sawn at 45 deg?
I akso need thin sheets of veneer to edge the " rope".
Available in Australia?
Pete

[Petecane]

Martin.
With the deepest respect to you and all Admin.
I am Miffed with some of the replies I have received.
I am now at the stage of going it alone.
I thought this forum was to do with "helping " each other along but the more I read, the more I think that I am excluded from the forum culture.
If you deem it necessary to permanently exclude me from the forum after this then so be it but I want my say mate!
In the beginings I asked questions re Lutherie.
The answers I got were..." Read the books ".
I then had to ask " what books "?
Then someone sent me a Link to " the books "
Trent sent a message which read ( +1 )
Meaning "read the books ".
So under these instructions ( with no incite as to their contents ) I ordered and have received " the books ".
Mr Coombe ( Peter ) Was quite rude to me.
The message he sent is recorded on the forum.
" If you do not like the answers then why ask?"
It was not a question of me liking "THE ANSWERS" but me trying to fathom out what you meant by " Read the books ".

Only a fool would never ask!!...
My question now is...Did Gore/Gilet cover what I am now asking about " Rope Binding " the way they did it a hundred years ago?.
The answer is " No " because I have read the books which cover contemporary guitar construction.
Because of my latest question I am now referred to " Use the search facility Pete".
In good Australian.......and this is how it is with me.
If you do not want to help then I appreciate that.
If you do not know the answer to my question I appreciate the silence.
If You can help with my specific question I will be delighted.
But please stop instructing me to do this and do that as the ultimate answer.
There is no ultimate answer.
This " should " be about discussion.
I am not known but alive.
I love doing what I do and live the journey.
If you do not want to know about my journey then tell me now and I will not bother you any further with what I am doing.
For all that we do as long as we live ......we all share the same end no matter who you are.
" At death , we all rot the same "
Pete




(

[kiwigeo]

Pete, with due respect what I said was "Time to start using the forum's search feature Pete". I then provided a link to a very extensive discussion on rope binding including which includes a reference to an article in American Lutherie written by Graham MacDonald on the subject.

It's not a matter of not wanting to help....it's more a matter of encouraging members to help themselves using the resources available on the forum rather than spoon feeding them answers to questions that have already been asked in other threads. If I had the time I'd have jotted up a lengthy post summarizing what's in the above thread but I'm sorry Pete....I just don't have that time.

Please check out the link I posted and if you still have questions then post them up and we'll take it from there. I suggest you chat with Graham and if you ask him nicely he may offer to send you a scan of the AL article he wrote on rope binding. If you have no luck there than get back to me. I have the magazine but it's packed away in the depths of my workshop (currently packed up for the new house build) and it will take some time to fish it out.

Cheers Martin

Because of my latest question I am now referred to " Use the search facility Pete".
In good Australian.......and this is how it is with me.
If you do not want to help then I appreciate that.

[kiwigeo]

What forum culture....I think most people on this forum would agree that the ANZLF is one of the more "laid back" and informal of the luthiery forums. Occasionally we take the piss but in all cases it's well deserved and as far as excluding people from the forum....that occurs very rarely and in all cases the members concerned have pushed things way past to the point where they would have been banned from most other forums.

Like most forums we have a diverse mix of people.....both in terms of experience and also personality. A few of us get a bit prickly and sometimes we have bad days. Right now I'm dealing with what's been going on in Christchurch, NZ over the last few days. Pete probably has bad days as well but when it comes to expertise in mandolin building Pete and Graham can't be beaten. bear in mind also that Pete and Graham are professional builders and they're under no obligation to share their skills with others...but they chose to do so.

Stick around Pete and keep asking questions.We;ll do our best to answer them

I thought this forum was to do with "helping " each other along but the more I read, the more I think that I am excluded from the forum culture.
If you deem it necessary to permanently exclude me from the forum after this then so be it but I want my say mate!

[Petecane]

Those were nice replies.
Sorry guys I was gettin frustrated.
I just wanna show you pics what I am doing?
I am very excited about my new build.
I am more than pleased you have not " blasted" me.
I am just as human and at times too responsive.. just like others.
Thank you for your thoughtful replies.
It means a world to me.
So Iam still " In "?
Pete

[kiwigeo]

So Iam still " In "?
Pete

Looks like it....

[Petecane]

Thanks Martin.
I will post what I am up to.
Re ..Rope bindings. I have sent a message to my friend Andrew Dipper who now resides in USA and is very much into historical reproductions.
I hope he can help.
It is without doubt.
Pete

[lamanoditrento]

Pablo Requena has a good youtube about making a herringbone purfling, which is basically a double rope: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4wS73H78EE

John Bogdanovic https://www.jsbguitars.com/classical-gu ... king-book/ also shows herringbone (or wheat purfling, I can't remember which) in his book Classical Guitar Making, again with rope construction being a constituent part

I haven't made rope, however, I have recently made my foray into more complicated purfling, attempting Paco Chorobo's chainlink purfling https://chorobo.com/en/courses/online-course/ . Basically laminating veneer of blue/white/blue and another of white/blue/white, cutting them into strips which I then sandwiched between more blue veneer. It took me a couple of goes, but pretty happy with the result.

[Fisherman]

i suspect u are after bindings and not purflings... but if purflings, u should be able to get them on ebay. if u type or copy:

25Strip Luthier purfling Binding Marquetry Inlay Wood inlaid 880x1.5x1.5mm #91

into google then it should pop up.

[Petecane]

The rope binding I referr to is on photos of the various Nunes Instruments but I am unable to send a picture.
Might be ccopyright rules so I have drawn what I mean.
The rope is made up of brown and creamy coloured wood and on the inside there is a thin veneer strip.
It is quite chunky and to get around the waist could snap the glue joints.
I am wondering if they were laid in individually?
These are not modern contemporary instruments but some 100 years old.
I saw the Pablo Requenas vid but it is not herringbone that I am after.
Pete

[lamanoditrento]

If it were me, I would still be constructing the same way. Create the log of askew strips per Pablo, slice off strips and laminated them between two veneers. Then bend them on a hot iron. Having a veneer on each side will allow them to bend both ways with the iron melting/re-activating the glue allowing the pieces to move against each other. Cut your binding channel a veneer thickness shallow and then scrape off the outside/proud veneer flat with sides.

[Petecane]

Yes!!!.....that is exactly it!...
Brilliant.
Thanks for the low down on that Trent.
I will watch the P R vid again and again.
Two questions if I may?....
Did you make that Beautiful instrument?
Should I use hot glue or will Tite bond bend just as good under heat?.
The idea of the veneer strips each side to hold everything in place makes good sense.
I will do some tests on a dummy first....or should it be..." I, the Dummy will do some tests first?".
Pete

[Jim watts]

Hi Pete,
It's been a while since I made this rosette so the process is a little fuzzy to me right now but near as I remember lamanoditrento's description of it is spot on.
It took me a couple of attempts, the failure with the first one was due to using a water based glue like titebond. You obviously have to be able to use a water based glue as this type of purfling has been around hundreds of years but I had problems with it. My problem was cupping in my layup, which makes the arrows not line up when assembled into the wheat, It probably wouldn't be an issue with rope. By switching to a urethane glue however my problem was solved and things came out much better. It holds together better under heat and moisture too. I should mention I hate urethane glue, but it works in this application.

IMG_2785_lzn Medium Web view.jpg (48.51 KiB) Viewed 21262 times

[quartpopt]

I have very successfully used Selleys 308. I think it was also called Aerolite. It was developed to build Antarctic sledges in the sixties! It is water and heat resistant. Was used a lot for boat building. I never had laminated bindings disintegrate. Its a powder that is mixed with water and then a hardener. However, I haven't seen it for some time, so maybe it is no longer made. I wonder whether Cascamite would do the job.

[Gassy]

I have very successfully used Selleys 308. I think it was also called Aerolite. It was developed to build Antarctic sledges in the sixties! It is water and heat resistant. Was used a lot for boat building. I never had laminated bindings disintegrate. Its a powder that is mixed with water and then a hardener. However, I haven't seen it for some time, so maybe it is no longer made. I wonder whether Cascamite would do the job.

Not made anymore. http://www.selleys.com.au/ask_expert/an ... sives/4019

[Petecane]

Thanks Guys for all your feedback and pics of what you have done.
I also think Trento hit the nail.
The outside strip of veneer is used to keep it all together and then removed afterwards.
What a Gem of a secret that was!
And it is precisely this that excites me.
Please...I do not expect to be spoon fed but wish to discuss with you how this Rope binding has been accomplished.
To my mind, it is not the normal contemporary method but something they did a century ago.
This is why I asked.
Re ....Aerolite and Cascamite powder glue.
I have used both decades ago.
My personal take on their usage would be that for " binding " purposes it would be too hard as it is very brittle.
Hot glue however is more forgiving.
Tite bond should be okay.
I have never made Rope binding before but do know that a century ago they uesd hot glue.
You will say..." Thats all they had".
I have read a very interesting article about Glues.
12 different glues were tested including Tite bond, Hot Hide Glue, Lmi and various others.
Obviously with glueing spars and braces then Sponginess on glue would not be a good thing.
You would have thought that Hot Glue would be the most brittle.
I thought so too but it registered at about the same as Tite Bond ie the resonance lasted 1.7 seconds.
The hardest setting glue proved to be Lmi which almost doubled the sustain to 3 seconds.
Anyway this is about Rope binding.
They did it a century ago with hot glue and it worked.
So I will give it a try.
I have used it before with the four violins I have made so should be okay.
A wise old carpenter told me.
" if its too cold it won't hold"
" If its too thick it won't stick "
Plus many humorous stories about hot glue.
Pete

[lamanoditrento]

If you are confident with HHG, I would use that. The chain link purfling above is 3mm thick and was made with titebond and bent without any problem on an iron with no water involved.