Potential Nigerian Scammers/ Safe Purchasing advice

[needsmorecowbel]

So I've been trying to sell a few things on Gum tree- Practice Amps, Drum Cymbals and the Like and have had to wade through the B.S of dealing with scammers and phishers. Here is the latest one who I had a bit of fun with by adopting the persona of a movie character (Anton Chigurh {The Charming Contract Killer} from No Country For Old Men). Please note I switched emails midway through the scam:

http://imgur.com/5F3zDgu

[liam_fnq]

So what's the scam they pull? other than being really annoying.

[Ormsby Guitars]

Hmmm, so you are Stu in the first emails, and you have a guy that wants to deposit money into your bank account for some old coins.

He offers paypal OR bank transfer.

You switch names to Anton.

He continues to offer paypal OR bank transfer, whatever you prefer.

You send him fake bank account details that suggest YOU are a scammer.

Im with Liam, I just dont see what the point was?

[needsmorecowbel]

Liam
I'll explain:

The scammers compile a list of mobile phone numbers on gumtree/ ebay and send vague mass emails to people's phones usually with very poor grammar and spelling (warning sign #1) asking what you have for sale (Warning sign #2) (you would think they would know what you are selling).
They then ask to do business over email having just contacted you by phone (Warning Sign #3) and say that they will buy all of the items and demand a total cost (Warning Sign) which they don't try to negotiate the price (MASSIVE Warning sign #4).

Then, like this guy who contacted me, come up with a story that they are out of the country/ inter state (Warning Sign #5) but want to pay via paypal/ bank transfer and have some delivery company pick it up and NEED IT IMMEDIATELY (Warning Sign #6).
They then either ask to pay via paypal (Warning Sign #7) and attempt to use that service against you by lodging a formal complaint with paypal saying that you haven't provided items/ services as described or delivered at all (in essence they reverse the payment on paypal).
Paypal is generally speaking only very safe for the buyer. The seller often gets screwed over and it is astonishing that such an insecure service makes so much money.

The scammers would use any bank account details you gave to them to try and hijack your account (call your bank pretending to be you which doesn't get them very far) or more commonly send a cheque with a payment greater than the total you specified. They then say "Oh Sorry I sent too much money I clicked the wrong key". They then ask you to return the money via wire transfer and if they get to you quickly enough or are you silly enough to do it. You lose the money before you realise the cheque has bounced and you end up out of pocket.

The use of a persona (from a well known film) in this case was an attempt for me to catch the scammer out in his mass emails. Which I did. It was a joke. If you don't find it funny I apologise. I think it is quite humourous. But I have a sick sense of humour...
I offer to post it for $15 anywhere in the state when he needs it. I offer to send him free things... He doesnt even respond to that...OBVIOUS SCAMMER. I tell him cash....he asks for bank...OBVIOUS SCAMMER. I could have typed in the lyrics to stairway to heaven and he would have responded with "what is your bank account #?". I posted this because I felt someone might benefit from the experience or perhaps make people that more wary when dealing with people online. If you look at the image above and think that this guy is a genuine person then perhaps you need to alter your approach to dealing with people online... Who ends an email with "Be Blessed" that is like the hallmark of a Nigerian Scammer.

Some Tips for safely selling things online within Aus:

1. Be extremely wary of paypal as unless the money is paid to you as a "gift" (gifts are non refundable) - it can be refunded to the original party in cases of fraudulent activity (which paypal has final ruling over and you could lose the ruling). However paying as a "gift" is very risky as there is no guarantee that the person on the other end will give you/ post your item. Paypal can't force them too either as you have waived your rights by accepting to give money as a gift.

2. Use a safer means of transferring money I.e Aus Post Money Order- This creates a paper trail and both parties have a receipt of the services. You need ID at the post office to receive any payment and you can just send the parcel off when you go to pick up the payment from the Post Office. You can then send a picture of the receipt to the buyer saying that it has been posted.

3. Don't give anyone you don't know your bank account # or BSB - Your Bank account address book should consist of close family, friends/ business contacts. Think of them as Sacred details...

4. Ask very specific questions if you see any warning signs. Get the person to contact you via phone (this weeds out quite a few scammers) but still remain cautious.

Oh and I just got another one this morning:
"Hi Seller,Please email me the asking price of your listed item on gumtree..so that i can make you an offer..Please email me at (***********@yahoo)"
The reason this is a potential scammer is the vagueness, and the email address...

Oh and for future reference
Perry, please refrain from being a jerk and calling me a scammer i.e. implying I am a lowlife degenerate filthbag. I don't appreciate that one bit...

Here is an image with explanations
http://i.imgur.com/4HGxUOK.jpg

[needsmorecowbel]

By "calling" me a scammer I mean implying. Perry, I am sure there are numerous people on the forum that could vouch for me not that I care what you think.

Stu

[Ormsby Guitars]

Ive just offered to buy a whole bunch of quilted maple, delivery to Australia, whilst I was in the USA. I told the seller I was not in the country, and wasnt on email often (travelling).

I offered paypal or bank transfer. I have a lot of funds in paypal, so like to use them rather than muck around transferring to my bank account. But I have funds in the bank account too.. Once the funds are in your bank, via a bank transfer, they cant get them back. Your buyer was offering that.

I asked the seller to give me a list of other items (wood) he had for sale. I liked everything he had, it was cheap, and I said i'd take the lot. I like to 'bundle'.

I then asked the seller to send it asap, because our house sitter could accept delivery. There was a window of time when we had a second house sitter coming in, that wouldnt be at the house all day every day. It was easier to get it sent ASAP. I didnt explain why, just said it had to be ASAP.

I also sent him emails from my business account prior to leaving, my business webmail (different name pops up, but same headers), AND my phone email account. Three different accounts.

All pretty much what happened with you.

---

I didnt say you were a scammer, I just said what you posted was a fake bank account, suggesting you were trying on a scam. In the transaction above, if the seller had given me a nigerian email, I'd be posting here telling everyone he was trying to scam people...

Gumtree allows you to send messages through their system to a sellers phone. When you then reply, it doesnt give them ANY details about the transaction, or who you are. It's very vague. It would be very easy to confuse two sales with each other, if you'd sent more than one email to a seller.

[kiwigeo]

The "point" Perry is to waste as much of the spammers time as possible. If you get lucky as I have on a few occassions you may even get the tossers to waste a bit of their own money on phone calls..I usually give them the front desk numbers for the AFP or ASIO. While theyre busy emailing me and making phone calls its less time theyll be spending trying to scam others less knowledgable about their modus operandi.

Supplying fake information to a 419 scammer is quite acceptable if the aim of the the prime aim of the exercise is to hinder the scammer's operation. On occasions the scammers will actually start to supply their actual contact details and scans of stolen/fake passports which I forward to the relevant authorities.

As for Stu's integrity and character....I'll vouch for those

Hmmm, so you are Stu in the first emails, and you have a guy that wants to deposit money into your bank account for some old coins.

He offers paypal OR bank transfer.

You switch names to Anton.

He continues to offer paypal OR bank transfer, whatever you prefer.

You send him fake bank account details that suggest YOU are a scammer.

Im with Liam, I just dont see what the point was?

[kiwigeo]

I didnt say you were a scammer, I just said what you posted was a fake bank account, suggesting you were trying on a scam. In the transaction above, if the seller had given me a nigerian email, I'd be posting here telling everyone he was trying to scam people...

I guess Stu could have posted up a direct warning on a particular scammer but I think anyone reading his OP will quickly realise that care should be taken when doing transactions on Gumtree. For the record I dont touch Gumtree with a barge pole...Ive heard too many bad stories about the site.

[Ormsby Guitars]

The "point" Perry is to waste as much of the spammers time as possible. If you get lucky as I have on a few occassions you may even get the tossers to waste a bit of their own money on phone calls..I usually give them the front desk numbers for the AFP or ASIO. While theyre busy emailing me and making phone calls its less time theyll be spending trying to scam others less knowledgable about their modus operandi.

Supplying fake information to a 419 scammer is quite acceptable if the aim of the the prime aim of the exercise is to hinder the scammer's operation. On occasions the scammers will actually start to supply their actual contact details and scans of stolen/fake passports which I forward to the relevant authorities.

As for Stu's integrity and character....I'll vouch for those

I understand that. I just dont understand how the funds going into your bank account can be called a scam? Paypal, western union, etc, yes. Bank account? I cant see it.

[needsmorecowbel]

Martin could not have put it any better. Sorry for jumping the gun Perry re: "calling me a scammer" It is hard to "read" for tone in text format.

I read on the site linked below that it is estimated every 60 seconds somewhere in the world someone is scammed and the average amount is around $1800 USD.

The idea is that if you waste 10 minutes of these scammer's time then It may potentially just have saved someone a bit of hurt down the track.

The funniest "scambaits" as they are called I have seen are so involved and take years to develop trust with the scammer. In one case on this website: http://www.419hell.com/

A celebrity "scambaiter" (who became so good that he could speak the language ) got an African Scammer to trust him and became employed by him to send fake cheques. He then would use the private info from the scammer to warn the victims. He then had to make hundreds of excuses as to why the scams where not working. They are in some cases 3 years of email correspondences compiled over 40-50 web pages. I don't know what this guy gets out of it other than feeling like a super hero... I just did it for a laugh so I could post it on a forum somewhere for other people to laugh at.

Stu

[Kim]

If I've got time to kill and get one of those calls from our continental friends at the MS Help Desk warning me that they have detected a rabid viral infection on my computer, the phone immediately goes on to speaker. I then explain to the caller how I 'thought' there was something wrong with the bloody thing because it takes such an awful loooong time to boot up these days. They then confirm with something like.."Yes, yes...Mr Kim, this is one of the problems that this infection causes and many other bad things to your security to.

They will then ask if my computer is turned on? To which I reply no.
I then tell them how thrilled I am that MS is on the ball and looking after my interest. I express my gratitude for their time in making the call and ask them if they would mind holding the line while I go start the computer reminding them again that it can take quite a while because of this horrid virus.
The caller will then confirm they are happy to hold because they are there to help me and will then instruct me to go and start the computer.
As I walk to anther room anywhere away from the kitchen, I then thank them again by expressing my gratitude for their assistance and kind hearted patience. I then put the phone down quietly under a pillow and go make myself a nice cup of Indian tea.

Sometimes after I have put the phone back on the hook, they will call back saying something like "Hello, Mr Kim...this is Benjamin Hudson from the Microsoft Help Desk again...is your computer now started? To which I will reply in a very cross voice...Oh Benjamin, you told me that you would hold the line!!! You said you would wait!!! I 'told' you 3 times that it takes a long time and that I would be back but when I picked up the phone again you had hung up on me and left me all on my own wondering what I am to do about my infection!!! I trusted you Benjamin and you let me down!! Since your call my computer now scares the wits out of me and I no longer feel safe in my own home!!

They will then apologise to me for causing so much stress and ask again if my computer is now turned on. I then remind them how since their first call, I no longer feel safe in the same house as my computer so I had turned it off so it could not do anything to me while he was not here. I then ask him if he wants me to turn it on again and make him promise that this time he will be more patient and hold until I get back....I then go out to the shed and find something more productive to do for an hour or two...The MS Help Desk keep calling me from time to time to help me with my infection but its never the same assistant for some reason.

Cheers

Kim

[needsmorecowbel]

Perry the problem is most people think Paypal is safe. The reality is quite different...If it is linked to your bank account and someone gets a hold of the paypal via phishing...It is Potentially Good bye Money...

If you are a buyer then you don't usually have too many hassles as you're covered by the paypal consumer safety net.

However if you are a seller it can be a nightmare. You technically don't get the money until the buyer has signed off on the condition of the item when it arrives to his/her address (the money is in limbo technically until the buyer receives the item). This leaves you open to all kind of scams.

There was a case a while back I read on a luthier forum where a guy in Spain bought what was advertised to be a Gibson mandolin. However the Spanish buyer contacted the seller in the States to say it wasn't a Gibson but he would take it anyway for the same price. When the package arrived the Spaniard lodged a complaint with ebay/paypal that it wasn't as advertised. He ended up keeping the Mandolin and the Money. You hear these stories all the time. Or the package going to an unverified address or not arriving at all/ not being in the condition as advertised. Paypal in a lot of these instances reverse the payments in favour of the buyer.

The problem is Paypal is a middle man that allows you to pay money for items without having to give money to people directly. Paypal deals with so many users that they have to make it quick, safe and easy. They simply don't appear to have the resources to create long investigations into whether an item is as advertised or if it has arrived. And even if they did they would have to be trained/ be experts in individual fields i.e. an expert in antique postcards/ stamps. They mainly handle the money side of things as it is in their interests to do so.

Scammers have come to realise this very mentality (that Paypal is a business trying to make a lot of money) and see it as a weak point in the paypal operation. So in a lot of anti-paypal stories on the internet you hear of people who send things away and then the other party claim that it never arrived or it was damaged upon arrival and of course Paypal can't wade through boxes of evidence on a case by case basis without charging huge excess fees. They are not Judge Judy, although the rulings are final...
They are not police or detectives or the like, they solicit money transactions.

To recap Scammers (BUYERS) can get around paypal security/ safety by:

- Phishing your account details

- calling up their own bank (perhaps they also have fraudulent bank accounts) and tell the bank to cancel the charges after the item has shipped as they claim the payment was not them...& indicative of fraudulent activity

-The buyer (having often gained access to a reputable paypal account by phishing- gains your trust with his feedback scores) can apply to have the charges reversed after having the seller send it to an incorrect postal address

- The buyer can claim the item was faulty/ not as advertised and reverse the charges

- The buyer can pretty much just cancel the payment at any time before or within a set time after delivery...for an array of reasons.

If you look into it yourself you'll hear some pretty shady tales relating to paypal...

[needsmorecowbel]

Just chatting to a mate who knows a bit more about computers than I do.

He said quite often a paypal Scammer will steal/ phish several legitimate paypal user's accounts and then use account "A" to pay for an Item online which the scammer will then in turn reverse the charges for when it arrives to the postal address of their choosing claiming that it "never arrived".
So instead of just emptying the paypal user's bank account the scammer's do something awfully sneaky- they use paypal against itself.
So with this stolen account they have essentially doubled up (they have got both the money and an item worth $$$). They then use the money they have gained from Account A and send it to another legitimate Paypal Account (stolen or not), Account B for example. The money is then used to pay for Goods/Services that don't require documentation/ proof i.e. "$800 for second hand TV Cabinet" or "$60 for Tutoring my Son in Science". These are deposited into Account "C", then "D" and so on and so forth... The services/ goods are completely fake but to paypal it looks genuine as it has come from a legitimate account. So with each payment for services/goods the money becomes less dirty each time it is shifted between paypal/bank accounts until it can be withdrawn without suspicion or within a country where officials can be bribed. It's a messed up process that would cause a heck of a lot of grief to people who get their details phished.

That's pretty much one of the most common paypal "scams" from start to finish...

Stu

[Kim]

Sorry Stu but it ain't all as you say. Just because someone has their paypal account linked to a bank account it does not mean that some nefarious fellow could somehow access 'that' money, the money in the banking account also, it just don't work that way. Same deal with a seller receiving payment via Paypal, those funds remained locked in that Paypal account but only for around 4 days and that's it. The seller, or owner of that account can then transfer those funds into their banking account and Paypal then has no access. In the case of a dispute, Paypal 'can' lock any funds in your Paypal account until the matter is resolved and can even transfer and appropriate amount back to the buyer if they find in their favour, however once again they only have control over those funds actually still in your Paypal account and do not have access to your bank account. Unless things have changed then as far as I am aware Paypal could request that you transfer funds back into your Paypal account to complete the resolution, but they can't access your banking account to do that transfer themselves.

Also when it comes to a non-delivery dispute, should the seller provider Paypal's dispute resolution centre with proof of dispatch, i.e a tracking number, then Paypal will generally find in their favour. This is why most all ebay items are sent with tracking these days cause seller have woken up that they send at their own peril without one. In an 'item not as described' dispute, the process would not normally see the seller loose goods 'and' money. Generally the item would neeed to be sent back to the seller (with a tracking number) and acknowledged as received 'before' Paypal will issue a refund. Sometimes however and agreement can be reached where the buyer accepts the goods sent at a mark down to compensate for missing parts, or lesser value due to undeclared damage, but in a dispute, Paypal can't completely discard the value of the items sent by awarding both them 'and' a full refund to the buyer, only the seller can do that and sometimes they will just to keep a good rating.

Bottom line is that Paypal is not 'that' bad as a payment option for either party and the proof of that is the simple fact that sooner or later most true scammers eventually request some funds to be wired...now there's the real warning sign.

Cheers

Kim

[Kim]

There was a case a while back I read on a luthier forum where a guy in Spain bought what was advertised to be a Gibson mandolin. However the Spanish buyer contacted the seller in the States to say it wasn't a Gibson but he would take it anyway for the same price. When the package arrived the Spaniard lodged a complaint with ebay/paypal that it wasn't as advertised. He ended up keeping the Mandolin and the Money.

As I recall from reading this one myself way back when Stu the buyer had paid a professional valuer to confirm that the instrument he received was indeed a fake. 'Apparently', the seller had not been aware of that fact when he had listed the instrument, but none the less, that was 'his' problem and not the buyers.

In the end it turned out that in order to have the instrument returned, the 'seller' would first have to pay the return shipping cost 'and also' the cost of the professional assessment that had made him aware of his dilemma. The cost of these combined had likely exceeded the value of the 'distressed' Chinese copy, so the 'seller' then decided not to come to the party. Therefore Paypal had allowed the buyer to keep the instrument to compensate for their cost in obtaining the professional assessment (app $100 IIRC) and awarded them a full refund of their purchase and shipping cost also...just as they should have.

Cheers

Kim

[needsmorecowbel]

Kim, That was the most basic way I could put it. It's note even close to air tight but there are that many little exceptions and details to what I have said that I didnt want to end up typing out an essay and wanted to keep it simple.

My mistakes,typos, potential fear mongering, poor examples and hyperbole aside, In my opinion Paypal is still a mine field and the holes exist for people to exploit IF the buyer/ seller is complacent... This of course all counts on you not checking your bank statements/ emails for a prolonged period of time. As realistically you can catch most fraudsters before it is too late if you do check these daily.

As you said you can avoid a lot of these issues by avoiding being complacent, use of tracking numbers, keeping accurate documentation, being careful what is said in private messages. But it has been eye opening recently to see that it is not as safe as I once thought... Gumtree is just rife with phishing scams (I'm getting 1-2 a day)

The main point I should have made clearer is that while it is marketed as "safe" and easy however there is a fair bit wrong with paypal...You could argue that it is fairly rare to see someone lose money on Paypal to a scammer but the scams exist and there are a lot of scammers online...so I guess all fact/fiction aside...don't be complacent especially on paypal...

[needsmorecowbel]

Sorry I couldn't find the article when I was typing up the earlier post...Also I didn't mean to imply the phisher would have access directly to your bank account I merely meant if in the case that they were to phish an account that had a direct link to a bank account they could potentially pay for an item in your name causing you a whole lot of grief...

Stu

[needsmorecowbel]

Perry, the reason funds going into your bank account is a scam is because it is done by Cheque...The Cheque is larger than the amount you specified to the buyer. They say there has been a mistake once you receive the cheque, and ask you return a chunk of the money via wire. If they get you early enough before the cheque bounces you end up transferring your own money to them and end up out of pocket. The fake cheque is often for hundreds or a thousand dollars above that which you specify the items at to make it look like a legitimate mistake...

Stu

[Ormsby Guitars]

Perry, the reason funds going into your bank account is a scam is because it is done by Cheque...The Cheque is larger than the amount you specified to the buyer. They say there has been a mistake once you receive the cheque, and ask you return a chunk of the money via wire. If they get you early enough before the cheque bounces you end up transferring your own money to them and end up out of pocket. The fake cheque is often for hundreds or a thousand dollars above that which you specify the items at to make it look like a legitimate mistake...

Stu

Yes, but he didnt ask to send you a cheque. He asked for your bank details.

If the cheque is wrong, tear it up, and ask for a new one. Easy!

I understand paypals limitations and faults. I understand the western union scams. I understand cheque fraud and scams. It's great that you are wasting their time. But wouldn't it be better to simply ignore them?

[kiwigeo]

It's great that you are wasting their time. But wouldn't it be better to simply ignore them?

Not really.... as I pointed out earlier every minute of a scammers time you waste is a minute they can't spend scamming someone else less gullible. Of course Stu (and myself) don't spend all our time baiting scammers. I take the view that if I'm having a quiet moment and there's no pressing need to be in the workshop then why not spend a bit of that time causing a crim inconvenience, costing him a few dollars and major embrassment amongst his crim mates...and I also derive a bit of pleasure out of watching a crim take the bait and fall victim to his greed and gullibility.

Ignoring scammers? Not me......if I get a scam email the least I do is flick it on to the AFP....it only takes 10 seconds out of my day. The scammer is usually using a yahoo or hotmail email address so the email gets reported and the account gets shut down...another 30 seconds out of my day. The scammer then has to set up another ema'l account which takes alot longer that 30 seconds so Ive wasted more of his time than I have of mine.

In the end its really a matter of whatever floats your boat......some of us get a thrill out of collecting milk bottle tops.....for Stu and myself its baiting 419 scammers

[needsmorecowbel]

This is the first time I have done it, usually I just bin them. I personally don't see the point reporting such activity to Gumtree... I'm with Martin, It's just something you can do whilst watching a movie or listening to music. Martin is far more on the ball regarding this subject/ topic. I've spent far too long in front of a computer screen today to write anything else that is cohesive/ informative. Apologies...

Stu

[needsmorecowbel]

Just realised I don't read/ watch the news quite enough:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... us-privacy

[DarwinStrings]

We are probably a bit hard on the Nigerians. I have adopted that language as well "Nigerian Scammers". The last Phishing mail I got was American and I forwarded it on to Paypal, they replied and informed me that it was as I suspected, they didn't mention anything about what they do about it though.

Jim

[kiwigeo]

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2009 ... or-profit/

[needsmorecowbel]

Sorry Jim, I tried to not make it solely about "nigerians" scammers in the title of the thread with the word "Potential". I thought this was a Nigerian scammer due to the substitution of "Be Blessed" instead of the more common regards, or sincerely at the end of an email.

Scammers come from a whole range of backgrounds although the ones you perhaps hear about a lot more come from countries where it is possible to easily bribe officials to look the other way. Hence you hear a lot about scammers from Africa, Bucharest & Romania, Parts of South America & anywhere in the world that has internet access. Then there is "Hackerville"

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/01/f ... e_romania/