Hi all,
this is a question i would like to know,
now i realize this can only be a rough estimate but how many Luthiers would there be in Australia,
regards Robert,
Luthiers
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Tigermyrtle
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Tigermyrtle
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Bob Connor
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It's probably not a stupid answer Bob.
There is no central registry of who is building instruments in Australia and to be quite honest I wouldn't have a clue and wouldn't like to guess because I'd probably be way off the mark. The closest I would like to guess would be somewhere between a hundred and a thousand.
As you may have seen there are only a handful of guitar builders on this forum who resell their instruments and most of the blokes on here are dedicated and skilled artisans who are building for their own pleasure and have probably never considered such a question because to most of them it is irrelevant.
Bob
There is no central registry of who is building instruments in Australia and to be quite honest I wouldn't have a clue and wouldn't like to guess because I'd probably be way off the mark. The closest I would like to guess would be somewhere between a hundred and a thousand.
As you may have seen there are only a handful of guitar builders on this forum who resell their instruments and most of the blokes on here are dedicated and skilled artisans who are building for their own pleasure and have probably never considered such a question because to most of them it is irrelevant.
Bob
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Tigermyrtle
Ok Bob, i understand what your saying its just i am trying to do some Market research so i will have to find other ways of finding out the answer to this question thanks, Regards Bob.
bob wrote:It's probably not a stupid answer Bob.
There is no central registry of who is building instruments in Australia and to be quite honest I wouldn't have a clue and wouldn't like to guess because I'd probably be way off the mark. The closest I would like to guess would be somewhere between a hundred and a thousand.
As you may have seen there are only a handful of guitar builders on this forum who resell their instruments and most of the blokes on here are dedicated and skilled artisans who are building for their own pleasure and have probably never considered such a question because to most of them it is irrelevant.
Bob
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Paul B
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Tigermyrtle
Hi Paul, no worrys i did not think you were trying to be a smart arse i took it as a joke, regards Robert,
Paul B wrote:Hey Robert,
I wasn't trying to be a smart arse. The thing is, none of use knows how many there are.
Your guess is as good as ours.
Unless someone has a list?
Cheers,
Paul Burns
CEO
Stupid Answers-R-Us Emporium - (got a question? We'll give you a stupid answer, Cheep!!!).
Hey Bob
I wouldn’t know where to begin trying to figure it out, I know three guys who make and sell a few guitars a year that don’t have a website or even a yellowpages listing. Perhaps it would be better to try and figure out how many people in Australia buy top end guitars? I know a guy with a music store here and he told me he sells maybe one top line guitar ever second month and a couple in the $800 range. There would be 4 shops here and a population of about 200 000. If you said for each one sold in a shop there was one sold direct by the builder it would give you one handmade guitar per month per 50 000 people. Sorry I can’t be of more help, it just isn’t a question anyone could answer. I think if I was looking to sell guitar timbers, especially rare Tasmanian stuff I would be looking at the US, much bigger market.
Cheers
James
I wouldn’t know where to begin trying to figure it out, I know three guys who make and sell a few guitars a year that don’t have a website or even a yellowpages listing. Perhaps it would be better to try and figure out how many people in Australia buy top end guitars? I know a guy with a music store here and he told me he sells maybe one top line guitar ever second month and a couple in the $800 range. There would be 4 shops here and a population of about 200 000. If you said for each one sold in a shop there was one sold direct by the builder it would give you one handmade guitar per month per 50 000 people. Sorry I can’t be of more help, it just isn’t a question anyone could answer. I think if I was looking to sell guitar timbers, especially rare Tasmanian stuff I would be looking at the US, much bigger market.
Cheers
James
Ok, ok, time to fess up fella's, there is only 3 of us Bob. Me, Dave and Paul, that's it. The rest of those guys on this forum are just us 3 idiots answering our own questions and hanging shite on ourselves so we can appear more important than what we are. 
So now you know, the truth is out, no Bob, no Allen, no Tim, no Joel, Jeff, Craig, Martin, Alan, Graham etc, etc. none of em, they don't exist, it's all BS...I feel better now that the truth is finally out.
Cheers
Mick
Vice President, Stupid Answers-R-Us Emporium - (got a question? We'll give you a stupid answer, Cheep!!!)
So now you know, the truth is out, no Bob, no Allen, no Tim, no Joel, Jeff, Craig, Martin, Alan, Graham etc, etc. none of em, they don't exist, it's all BS...I feel better now that the truth is finally out.Cheers
Mick
Vice President, Stupid Answers-R-Us Emporium - (got a question? We'll give you a stupid answer, Cheep!!!)
Last edited by Kim on Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tigermyrtle
Luthiers
now here is an interesting piece of news the wide world Market for Stringed Musical instruments is 1 Million per year, i am just trying to find rough idea how many instruments are made here in Australia,
as i am working close with Rick Turner to Value add Tasmanian Timbers here in Australia and as well as selling to the U.S. Market that i know is large i still will look after the local Australian market,
within the next 2 months i will be milling some beautifull large King Billy Logs that i believe is a Top Quality sound board Timber, regards Robert,
as i am working close with Rick Turner to Value add Tasmanian Timbers here in Australia and as well as selling to the U.S. Market that i know is large i still will look after the local Australian market,
within the next 2 months i will be milling some beautifull large King Billy Logs that i believe is a Top Quality sound board Timber, regards Robert,
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Tigermyrtle
and here i was thinking that i was just having a chat not for one minute thinking i was important or that i was talking to idiots, now give away free Brazillian Rosewood please contact Hesh. regards Robert.
Kim wrote:Ok, ok, time to fess up fella's, there is only 3 of us Bob. Me, Dave and Paul, that's it. The rest of those guys on this forum are just us 3 idiots answering our own questions and hanging shite on ourselves so we can appear more important than what we are.
Cheers
Mick
Vice President, Stupid Answers-R-Us Emporium - (got a question? We'll give you a stupid answer, Cheep!!!)
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ozziebluesman
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G'day Robert,
I worked in a music industry here in North Queensland for ten years retiring two years ago. At a guess from the four music outlets here there would be a few higher end acoustics sold a month. Mostly Maton's with only a handfull of luthier built instruments sold a year. The acoustic guitar gained popularity here about the year 2000 due to an increased popularity in Blues & Roots music. Up here in the tropics, trends take sometime to reach us. I would say in some areas we would be tens years behind the big cities of Australia. Also in my experience over the ten years some years the electric outsold the acoustic and visa versa.
Cheers
Aln
I worked in a music industry here in North Queensland for ten years retiring two years ago. At a guess from the four music outlets here there would be a few higher end acoustics sold a month. Mostly Maton's with only a handfull of luthier built instruments sold a year. The acoustic guitar gained popularity here about the year 2000 due to an increased popularity in Blues & Roots music. Up here in the tropics, trends take sometime to reach us. I would say in some areas we would be tens years behind the big cities of Australia. Also in my experience over the ten years some years the electric outsold the acoustic and visa versa.
Cheers
Aln
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sebastiaan56
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- Location: Blue Mountains
Hi Robert,
maybe the better question is how to develop a market for lutherie skills and use that as a channel to feed products. Seems to work for other woodworking specialties eg pen making, clock construction, woodturning etc. Musicians and their suppliers are a funny lot, highly parochial but this translates into a high degree of purchasing loyalty as well. The old vertical integration routine. Maybe marketing to lutherie schools is a place to investigate.
As most of us are amateurs i reckon demand would fluctuate with other economic factors. As most items tend to high perceived value and are a discretionary spend i and i expect others will choose according to capacity to pay, ie we buy the grouse stuff when we have the money but the good enough when we dont.
I'll take 2 of those sets Hesh,
Sebastiaan
PS there are NO lutherie schools in the Sydney region, a great business opportunity for someone...... hint... hint...
maybe the better question is how to develop a market for lutherie skills and use that as a channel to feed products. Seems to work for other woodworking specialties eg pen making, clock construction, woodturning etc. Musicians and their suppliers are a funny lot, highly parochial but this translates into a high degree of purchasing loyalty as well. The old vertical integration routine. Maybe marketing to lutherie schools is a place to investigate.
As most of us are amateurs i reckon demand would fluctuate with other economic factors. As most items tend to high perceived value and are a discretionary spend i and i expect others will choose according to capacity to pay, ie we buy the grouse stuff when we have the money but the good enough when we dont.
I'll take 2 of those sets Hesh,
Sebastiaan
PS there are NO lutherie schools in the Sydney region, a great business opportunity for someone...... hint... hint...
make mine fifths........
I know of only 2 other guitar builders in the Cairns region plus several violin and mandolin builders. The Cairns library has a really good selection of instrument making books, and they are always checked out, so I suspect that there are heaps of people interested, possibly building and perhaps staying very well under the radar.
The truth is that no one can really answer this question. Just because a juggler can juggle it does not make them an authority on jugglers. Building an instrument does require a set of skills, but none would present anymore insight into the demographics of the craft to a builder that would make his stab-in-the-dark any more accurate than the next persons.
There are many builders who having made a guitar or two over the last 20 years maintain a keen interest in the craft. Some even threaten to get around to building another someday, are these people luthiers?
I suspect that there is a very large number of builders out there who do not have internet access or advertise in anyway and don't really wish to either. These people build for a localised market supplementing a more formal income with a guitar sale here and there. Are these people luthiers?
Then there are those who are just happy to build a few guitars a year as a hobby and maybe even sell one now and then to cover some cost, are these people luthiers?
I think that you really need to answer these question because I would imagine that those groups I just named above not only collectively form the largest market for tonewood, but I would suggest also describes where most here would slot ourselves.
Given the above, if you still consider that this collective group is worthy of a marketing focus, how do you then target the virtually unseen? How do you fill an unknown spontaneous demand? How do you be there when the market needs you to be there?
The only answer to this question that I know is that one would need to develop a reputation for only ever providing outstanding, first quality product and advise, impeccable service, and have a fair and reasonable pricing structure. It's a big call, but establishing such a reputation is the only way that such an unpredictable market will find you when it decides your needed.
I think the first thing anyone entering into the tonewood supply market needs to understand is that, more so than any other craft I can think of, quality is paramount to their potential customers. Further, that the very high expectation placed on a vendor to only providing best quality is completely justified when you consider that their wares will eventually, after what can in some cases be an investment of hundreds of hours of contemplation, consideration and craftsmanship, under go an amazing transformation into a work of art.
Sure being partner to that sort of investment is a big responsibility for any business to take on, and if you get it wrong, you risk a damaging but completely justifiable pasting from your customers. As always bad word spreads much faster than good so IMHO, the wise vendor is bound to find a lot more waste on his shop floor when it comes to resaw time than the short sighted opportunist would find. But then, I guess that is the reason why the markup for instrument grade wood is soooo much higher than standard furniture grade wood, like anything RARE it is sure to command a premium.
Cheers
Kim
There are many builders who having made a guitar or two over the last 20 years maintain a keen interest in the craft. Some even threaten to get around to building another someday, are these people luthiers?
I suspect that there is a very large number of builders out there who do not have internet access or advertise in anyway and don't really wish to either. These people build for a localised market supplementing a more formal income with a guitar sale here and there. Are these people luthiers?
Then there are those who are just happy to build a few guitars a year as a hobby and maybe even sell one now and then to cover some cost, are these people luthiers?
I think that you really need to answer these question because I would imagine that those groups I just named above not only collectively form the largest market for tonewood, but I would suggest also describes where most here would slot ourselves.
Given the above, if you still consider that this collective group is worthy of a marketing focus, how do you then target the virtually unseen? How do you fill an unknown spontaneous demand? How do you be there when the market needs you to be there?
The only answer to this question that I know is that one would need to develop a reputation for only ever providing outstanding, first quality product and advise, impeccable service, and have a fair and reasonable pricing structure. It's a big call, but establishing such a reputation is the only way that such an unpredictable market will find you when it decides your needed.
I think the first thing anyone entering into the tonewood supply market needs to understand is that, more so than any other craft I can think of, quality is paramount to their potential customers. Further, that the very high expectation placed on a vendor to only providing best quality is completely justified when you consider that their wares will eventually, after what can in some cases be an investment of hundreds of hours of contemplation, consideration and craftsmanship, under go an amazing transformation into a work of art.
Sure being partner to that sort of investment is a big responsibility for any business to take on, and if you get it wrong, you risk a damaging but completely justifiable pasting from your customers. As always bad word spreads much faster than good so IMHO, the wise vendor is bound to find a lot more waste on his shop floor when it comes to resaw time than the short sighted opportunist would find. But then, I guess that is the reason why the markup for instrument grade wood is soooo much higher than standard furniture grade wood, like anything RARE it is sure to command a premium.
Cheers
Kim
Last edited by Kim on Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bob Connor
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Bob
The person who would be most likely to be able to get you that sort of info
would be Pat Evans at Maton.
I'm sure that being such a large stakeholder in the instrument construction business in this country, Maton would have some idea of the size of the market in which they operate.
Email him at patrick(dot)evans(at)maton(dot)com(dot)au
Cheers
Bob
The person who would be most likely to be able to get you that sort of info
would be Pat Evans at Maton.
I'm sure that being such a large stakeholder in the instrument construction business in this country, Maton would have some idea of the size of the market in which they operate.
Email him at patrick(dot)evans(at)maton(dot)com(dot)au
Cheers
Bob
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Tigermyrtle
Thanks Bob, and everyone else that answered its been an interesting chat. in the meantime i wonder if Hesh has any Brazillain Rosewood left, cheers Bob.
bob wrote:Bob
The person who would be most likely to be able to get you that sort of info
would be Pat Evans at Maton.
I'm sure that being such a large stakeholder in the instrument construction business in this country, Maton would have some idea of the size of the market in which they operate.
Email him at patrick(dot)evans(at)maton(dot)com(dot)au
Cheers
Bob
I can’t believe there isn’t a luthier school in Sydney! I was there a few weeks ago, it was the first time I’ve been back in many years and I’m sure there must be a few million people living there now.
The TAFE here advertised a guitar-making course about 5 years ago, I put my name down but it was already fully booked, it never ended up happening because the guy that was going to teach it pulled out. I suspect there is a lot more interest in the luthier crafts than most people would realise.
I concur with Kim, the only way forward in the tonewood supply market is to develop a good reputation. I know having been burnt by one supplier in Australia and having gotten great service and timber from another in Washington, that now I wouldn’t even shop around if I wanted something the company in Washington could supply.
I think you’re off to a good start, when I contacted you about buying some Musk you could have gone for the sale, but instead you warned me off and gave me your honest opinion why it wouldn’t be any good for an acoustic. As a way forward, Luthierform has an online tonewood auction, it could be worth the risk of getting a low price for a few sets by putting one set up for auction every couple of weeks without a reserve. It would get your name known and let people see and judge what you have to offer.
The TAFE here advertised a guitar-making course about 5 years ago, I put my name down but it was already fully booked, it never ended up happening because the guy that was going to teach it pulled out. I suspect there is a lot more interest in the luthier crafts than most people would realise.
I concur with Kim, the only way forward in the tonewood supply market is to develop a good reputation. I know having been burnt by one supplier in Australia and having gotten great service and timber from another in Washington, that now I wouldn’t even shop around if I wanted something the company in Washington could supply.
I think you’re off to a good start, when I contacted you about buying some Musk you could have gone for the sale, but instead you warned me off and gave me your honest opinion why it wouldn’t be any good for an acoustic. As a way forward, Luthierform has an online tonewood auction, it could be worth the risk of getting a low price for a few sets by putting one set up for auction every couple of weeks without a reserve. It would get your name known and let people see and judge what you have to offer.
Hesh1956 wrote:There is a very easy way to find out.
Just post an ad advertising "FREE Brazilian Rosewood" to Australian Luthiers and start counting the responses......
Thanks Hesh, I've always wanted to do a census of luthiers in the UK...I'll get more accurate numbers this way...I'll do it on April 1st so I don't get lynched...
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Rick Turner
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As some of you know, I'm very keen on teaching lutherie in Tasmania and mainland Australia. I've been teaching an "Instant Mandolin" course for a number of years; each student assembles, sands, and strings up an instrument over two weekends or a 3 1/2 day intensive. I'm teaching my first Tassie course in a couple of weeks with the sponsorship of the Folk Federation of Tasmania and the Tasmanian Adult Education Department. I've got eight students signed up, and apparently there's another ten on a waiting list for a course I'll (hopefully) teach in August.
These first two runs will be the mandolin...a kind of Gibson Army/Navy style flat top, flat backed instrument made Spanish-style on a solera (workboard). Then I want to do a "pineapple" form ukulele course or two before coming back to an expanded mando class where I'll offer mandola and octave mandolin/Irish bouzouki as well.
I've also been asked to consider teaching these courses in Melbourne, Sydney, and Byron Bay. I'd love to. I'd just need some sort of local sponsorship (which I have for Melbourne), a woodworking shop in which to teach (high school type shops are perfect), and transportation and accommodations for myself and my Tassie lady friend. Tuition and materials costs come to about $400.00 per student, and how that's split with the venue, etc. is all negotiable. I've got a short stay business visa for Australia along with a sponsorship letter from the Folk Federation of Tasmania that makes my doing this in Australia all on the up and up.
So I would be delighted to spend more time down under supporting, promoting, and helping the cause of lutherie as both a profession and a hobby in Australia and New Zealand. What would be ideal eventually would be to be able to come down and do two or three courses in different locations over four to five weeks...maybe do a couple of weekends for one course in Tassie and then do a couple of 3 1/2 or 4 day intensives elsewhere.
You've got beautiful timbers, a vital music scene, and great enthusiasm. I'd love to bring more of what I've learned down there and see your lutherie scene really blossom. It certainly has become world renown in the classical guitar field. Time to conquer the world of steel strings.
These first two runs will be the mandolin...a kind of Gibson Army/Navy style flat top, flat backed instrument made Spanish-style on a solera (workboard). Then I want to do a "pineapple" form ukulele course or two before coming back to an expanded mando class where I'll offer mandola and octave mandolin/Irish bouzouki as well.
I've also been asked to consider teaching these courses in Melbourne, Sydney, and Byron Bay. I'd love to. I'd just need some sort of local sponsorship (which I have for Melbourne), a woodworking shop in which to teach (high school type shops are perfect), and transportation and accommodations for myself and my Tassie lady friend. Tuition and materials costs come to about $400.00 per student, and how that's split with the venue, etc. is all negotiable. I've got a short stay business visa for Australia along with a sponsorship letter from the Folk Federation of Tasmania that makes my doing this in Australia all on the up and up.
So I would be delighted to spend more time down under supporting, promoting, and helping the cause of lutherie as both a profession and a hobby in Australia and New Zealand. What would be ideal eventually would be to be able to come down and do two or three courses in different locations over four to five weeks...maybe do a couple of weekends for one course in Tassie and then do a couple of 3 1/2 or 4 day intensives elsewhere.
You've got beautiful timbers, a vital music scene, and great enthusiasm. I'd love to bring more of what I've learned down there and see your lutherie scene really blossom. It certainly has become world renown in the classical guitar field. Time to conquer the world of steel strings.
Rick Turner
Guitar Maker, Experimenter, Diviner
www.renaissanceguitars.com
www.d-tar.com
Guitar Maker, Experimenter, Diviner
www.renaissanceguitars.com
www.d-tar.com
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graham mcdonald
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I did some research on behalf of the National Museum a couple of years back and I do have a database listing most Australian professional instrument builder (past and present, like back to the early 19th century). There are around 330 entries and around 130 have guitars mentioned. That number won't include the amateur builders of which there are doubtless lots more. The list was compiled by trawling through web listing and links sites, printed material and anything else I could hunt up and I think it is pretty comprehensive with no claims of a totally complete listing.
cheers
graham
cheers
graham
Graham McDonald
http://www.mcdonaldstrings.com
http://www.mcdonaldstrings.com
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