Finish problem with Hard Shellac

[Bob Connor]

I brought this guitar back from Tasmania with me.

It's finished with Hard Shellac (version 1) which shows no signs of crazing.

It was delivered in September 2007 so I guess the finish was applied in July of that year.

The owner noticed the discolouration after he started playing it standing up and using a strap (in the last couple of months).

So the affected area is in close proximity to his right armpit.

I jokingly asked him if he'd been drinking a lot of Vodka, but I think it's a combination of perspiration and/or deodorant. Maybe the shellac doesn't like aluminium chlorohydrate.

Anyone got any other theories?

Whichever, it's going to get re-finished with pre-cat laquer.

[Pete Brown]

Well, if the crazing problem has been solved in the new version with the addition of a plasticiser, I doubt it'll affect the product's propensity to discolour as Bob's photos clearly show.

As luck would have it, I finished spraying the first of the four guitars I have ready for finishing with hard shellac a few days ago. It certainly went on well enough and looks good (despite my dodgy spraying technique and the fact that it hasn't yet been rubbed out) , but Bob's photos pretty much seal it's fate as far as it's future use goes. Fortunately, the guitar I've sprayed is for my personal use.

It's a real shame, but with hopes of selling to customers in the near future, I think that's the end of the story for me; the other finishing options have just moved up the list a notch.

[DarwinStrings]

It does look like your average moisture damaged shellac Bob, the way it isn't so bad close to the back and soundboard where clothes keep it a little dryer.
Your thoughts on the deodorant are not to be dismissed though, is there any chance you could get some of the deodorant the owner is using and try that before you re-spray. It would be nice to confirm if it is just sweat and not the deodorant.

Jim

[Hippety Hop]

Did a mad Taswegian bite you on the toe Bob?

I'd cut it off - he could have rabies.

Hip.

[Bob Connor]

Did a mad Taswegian bite you on the toe Bob?

I'd cut it off - he could have rabies.

Hip.

Nah. I stubbed the bloody thing this morning getting the wood out of the car.

Good idea about the deodorant Jim. I'll give him a buzz and see what it was.

It certainly does look like typical moisture discolouration but the Hard Shellac is supposed to cross-link after about 20 days and prevent this sort of thing happening. That's why I think there must be something else to it.

The guitar I use every day is finished with Hard shellac and doesn't show any symptoms like this, and this is the first instrument that's done this so maybe this guy has that sweat that kills strings (and guitar finishes)

[Connor_the_builder]

Did a mad Taswegian bite you on the toe Bob?

I'd cut it off - he could have rabies.

Hip.

Nah. I stubbed the bloody thing this morning getting the wood out of the car.

I stubbed my foot today too I was getting a lead on the table and there was a box under it and I lost my balance and BLAM. The pain and cursing came, then the heckling from my sister.

[Pete Brown]

maybe this guy has that sweat that kills strings (and guitar finishes)

Bob. if that's the case, you'd expect the neck to be affected the same way. What's it look like?

[Bob Connor]

The neck is fine Pete.

[Kim]

Looks like moisture build to me to Bob, I suggest leaving it in a dryer place than tassie for a few weeks and watching what happens. If it clears, coat with wax and send her back with advice to the owner to do same on a regular basis to keep the moisture out.

As for the prejudice I have seen recently against hardshellac, and I acknowledge that Bob is not party to this, I think it is only fair to mention that the hardshellac product has NEVER been promoted by it's manufacturer as a finish that is suitable for musical instruments.

As I see it, what did happen is a few builders took it upon themselves to roll the dice and test hardshellac on their instruments because it did look like a simple solution to the time consuming and hazardous alternatives. Well for some it seems to have worked OK, and for others it was a problem. From that alone I think it is fai9r to say that an application regime may have been at fault, but who really knows.

What's known to me is that Neil Watshisname who makes "Ubeaut Products", and whom I hasten to add I have never met nor had one single exchange of communications with, kindly took the concerns of some instrument builder who where experiencing problems on board and invested his time and money to try and make his product work for our craft.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand, no one has yet reported on the effectiveness of Neil's gallant efforts to 'TRY' an assist us by reformulating his product so it 'may' work for our very unique needs. Rather I am still seeing condemnation of his original product which some took a gamble with by applied it to a board as moisture reactive as a 400mm wide, and 2mm thick guitar back.

Just because it's Australia day I thought it best to mention that, considering the circumstances, I think these attack and innuendos are completely unwarranted. Or to put it another way, fair fucken go, if you took the gamble and lost, that is your issue, stick your sour grapes and move on. When this guy provides you with a product that states on the label "Suitable for Musical Instruments" and you have issue, well then it is OK to crucify the poor bugger. But until then, lets try and keep the condemnation to a minimum and concentrate on the issues at hand.

Cheers

Kim

[Pete Brown]

I think it is only fair to mention that the hardshellac product has NEVER been promoted by it's manufacturer as a finish that is suitable for musical instruments.

I lifted this directly from the Ubeaut web site:
NEW IMPROVED FORMULA
Hard Shellac now has an added plasticiser. This gives elasticity to the cured finish, to combat crazing on the thin walls of musical instruments, whilst still having the same high resistance to marking from water, alcohol and heat it has always had.

[Hesh1956]

Bob my friend I have a guitar (and old Guild) that looks just like that and even though the Guild was finished in nitro I know what caused the finish problem. It was mosquito repellent that I had on when I played the guitar. It ate right into the finish.........

Just a thought.

[Hesh1956]

Also - is that your toe in the bandage?

[Kim]

I think it is only fair to mention that the hardshellac product has NEVER been promoted by it's manufacturer as a finish that is suitable for musical instruments.

I lifted this directly from the Ubeaut web site:
NEW IMPROVED FORMULA
Hard Shellac now has an added plasticiser. This gives elasticity to the cured finish, to combat crazing on the thin walls of musical instruments, whilst still having the same high resistance to marking from water, alcohol and heat it has always had.

Yes Pete but my point is that the original mix did not contain any reference to musical instruments however some people still insist on presenting their issue as if it had, This is unfair, can anyone report on their success or otherwise when using this 'new' formula??

Cheers

Kim

[Bob Connor]

Also - is that your toe in the bandage?

Yes it is Hesh, but I was unloading Tiger Myrtle at the time so I don't care.

I was the one who spoke to Neil Ellis about the crazing problem with the original hard Shellac and showed him one of the instruments that exhibited the problem. His factory is about 10 minutes away from where I live.

I had every intention of testing the new formula but I had an unopened tin of Mirotone pre-catalysed laquer that Dave and I decided to try.

We were so impressed with the results that we just never re-visited the Hard Shellac so as far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on Neils new product.

So I'm keen to see how Pete's instrument holds up.

A couple of reasons that we stuck with the Mirotone is that it hardens much quicker than the shellac and seems to have much, much better clarity.

The downside is the Mirotone is fairly toxic but I've got access to the spraying booths at the TAFE college where I work.

I'm fairly certain that this problem is person specific as there are quite a few of our guitars with shellac finishes that are not displaying the same problem.

I agree with Kim that it MAY be a really good product for those who don't want to invest in spray rooms and explosion proof fans.

[graham mcdonald]

Kim,

I tried out the Hard Shellac when I found out about it. As you say, it seemed like a very practical solution to getting a smooth glossy finish on an instrument. I was disappointed when the mandolin I used it on randomly crazed a couple of months later, but I have had batches of nitro lacquer do the same thing because it just set up too hard. (As it happens the person who now has that mando rather likes the 'antiqued' look) I figured the U-Beaut folks formulated it to go on table tops which were not going to have the same sort of movement as a a guitar top or back, so I just put it down as 'one of the good ideas, but it doesn't work for me'. It was only when I was at the Working With Wood Show in Sydney in June 07, where Gerard Gilet and I had been invited to do some demonstrations of instrument building, that I met the couple from U-Beaut (who also had a stand there) and mentioned what had happened to the mandolin. I was a bit surprised when my concerns were immediately dismissed as being entirely my fault in the application of it and nothing to do with any limitations in their product. It wasn't until the subject came up several months ago and Bob C reported that others had also mentioned crazing problems that the product was reformulated with the addition of the plasticiser that I realised that I was n't the only person who had been having problems with it.

It wasn't the product I was unhappy with, it was the attitude of those who were selling it. There are lots of clear wood finishes out there, and a lot of them are not going to be especially good for musical instruments, or at least for how we think they should look.

Interestingly, there has been discussion about Hard Shellac on the Left Brain Luthiers list and it was claimed there that the product is actually made by Shines, who had suggested the plasticiser originally, it wasn't used.

I have just about finished spraying another mandolin with the new hard shellac, and it seems to be going on fine. More reports as more info comes to hand.

cheers

[ozziebluesman]

Well I'm with Kim here!

I have tried the new formula Hard Shellac and so far it is a good finish. I will admit I am only interested in a finish that will stand up to playing conditions and not for instrument re-sale quality. Being a musician I place importance in this order, playability, tone and then ascetic value.

The Hard Shellac has worked for me. The finish on my two weissenborn copies and a Ukukeke show no signs of degredation. The finish is six months old.

I also reckon straight out of the bottle is not suitable for instrument making finishes. It's too thick and hard to apply. Because a stringed instrument is under tension from the steel strings and the wood is usually only 2 to 2.5 mm thick they would move more than a say table top. If the finish is thick this may be one reason there has been crazing problems!! So I think if applying by hand a two pound cut with adequate drying time between each coat is the way to go.

This is just my honest appraisel of the product. I am not experienced in finishes and application just a hobby builder.

Cheers

Alan

[Dominic]

With you Kim.

I think it worth working out the problems because, as others have said, if we can get it right it is a much healthier option that nitro class finishes.
One of things to work out is what will attack the finish. Perhaps a wax polish will be enought to protect it as Kim suggests.

We just gotta work out what is happening and how to prevent it so its good that Bob and others shows us these problems.

Personally I like using the stuff. I have one guitar finished in it 2 years ago, the rosewood B&S are still very nice and shiny with a little sinking on the back that could have been fixed with better grain filling I think.

The top was finished quite thin and has a bit of crazing but it is very hard to see. It looks kind of vintage. It is just beautiful on necks and feels much nicer under hand than nitro I think.
I will try out the new stuff and report back.
Dom

[Pete Brown]

I for one badly want this to finish to work for me going forward. As was discussed at length in another recent thread, the safe, easily-applied alternatives all have their downsides and the hard shellac would be my finish of choice - if, and only if, it displays the durability the marketing blurb would have us believe.

Until I see evidence to the contrary, I'll assume that crazing is no longer an issue now that the manufacturer has made allowance for the lutherie community's specific needs. That being said, I'll take the cautious approach and "road test" the finish on my personal guitar for a year or so before passing judgement. Unfortunately, that won't be a true test of the finish as it won't be subjected to the same wear and tear it would endure in the hands of a playing professional - no sweat, beer or Aerogard for starters!

If Bob, or anyone else, can suggest a range of materials to apply to my recently-sprayed 00-12, I'm happy to give them a try in the interests of nailing down what has reacted with the finish in such a negative way - insect repellant and anti-perspirant are obvious candidates. Assessing the characteristics and limitations of hard shellac in a more controlled fashion might give us a better idea of its suitability as a commercial finish. If we're not willing to take the time to evaluate it in such a way, we're left with: don't use it if you're going to sell your guitars; use it and hope that an irate customer doesn't come calling in a few months time. Personally, I don't see either of those alternatives as the ideal outcome.

[matthew]

Looks like the guitar was put away in a damp place for a while, to me.

how could sweat leave a pattern like that, without touching the edges?

maybe he put the guitar back in its case with the damp strap still attached?

wouldn't a rub with the ol' french polish reviver fix it?

[Lillian]

I agree with Matthew.

[James Mc]

I started refinishing my writing desk last night and it made me think of this post.

After about 15 years of use it has suddenly (over the last few months) developed a few blotches like the one on this guitar. It was French polished with my preferred mix for looks and hardness, 45% button lac, 40% white shellac and 15% gum sandarac. I’ve been trying to figure out what I’m doing differently that could have caused this and my conclusion is insect repellent. I hate the stuff and usually avoid using it, but I’ve been doing monitoring in the wetlands for the past 6 months so have been using it a lot of late. When I get home the first thing I do I sit at my writing table and clean up my notes while things are still fresh in my head. the discoloration is in the areas where I rest my forearms.