Talk about Jeff Babicz?

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kiwigeo
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Post by kiwigeo » Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:13 am

Craig L wrote: There are some players/builders who prefer a quick decay rather than long sustain.
Im achieving that with two bottles of cheap wine every night.

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Post by Craig » Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:37 am

:lol: :lol: :lol: Good one Martin

I noticed there is cheap ( cardboard box type) wine out now that goes under the label " TRAILER PARK BABY MAKER " :lol: :lol:

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Post by kiwigeo » Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:36 pm

Thats a bit cheaper than Im prepared to go.....when they find my pickled corpse I'd prefer it to be atop a mountain of glass bottles rather than a mountain of soggy cardboard and deflated foil bladders.

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Post by matthew » Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:30 pm

In this thread we were discissing differences between vioin family and guitar family.

I found this quote by a well-known bass luthier Bob Branstetter in Kansas, which I find interesting:

"From an acoustics prospective, an acoustic guitar is basically a very good Helmholtz resonator chamber with strings. If you were to measure the internal volume of a doublebass body, you would see that the body is not nearly large enough to be an efficient resonator for the fundamental frequencies it produces. It is the soundpost/bass bar combination (not found in guitars) that allows the relatively small chamber to produce the sound that it does."

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Post by Alain » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:15 am

Okay lads, just because I love you! LOL...

Actually, this picture caused quite an uproar on the OLF a while back... Everyone shows pictures of their braced tops but when this was showed, some people were fit to be tied! It seems one of his students took the picture when he wasn't supposed to...

Image

Cool, eh?
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Kim
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Post by Kim » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:45 am

Oh shit yeah! Thanks Alain :D

The lattice, do you think they are lap jointed and capped as a standard X ???

Cheers

Kim

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Post by Dennis Leahy » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:16 am

Alain, what I am I looking at there? Is that Babicz's bracing? If so, I see a big bridge plate to hold the 2-part bridge, but where is the reinforcement (that I assumed HAD to be there) for the string anchors?

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Post by Hesh1956 » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:41 am

That picture my friends is of one of Ervin Somogyi's superb guitars.

I know because I am the one who was put on double secret probation on the OLF for finding this very picture in the OLF's archives where it has run in a thread virtually unnoticed prior and reposting it in a current thread........ Go figure....

Anyway someone who went to Ervin's classes posted this originally on the OLF so there is no story to tell connected to the pic beyond the thousand words or more that this pic speaks.

I will tell ya that I have this pic too, have blown it up several times, and stared at it for very long periods of time. I know - get a life Hesh.....:D

I have the same question about the latice work at the intersections, is one brace passing over the other and not touching it or are they coupled. I suspect, since we see a hump, that they are not coupled but I don't know.

I also wonder if this is not quarter sawn stock and perhaps even multiple thin strips that are laminated together. Perhaps there is a carbon fiber or Kevlar layer as well.

Ervin's tops are constructed in such a fashion so that they will move and respond.

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Post by Dennis Leahy » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:57 am

Thanks, Hesh, I just couldn't resolve that to Babicz's string anchors.

I have not had the pleasure of playing one of Somogyi's guitars, but from what you say, they are awesome. Still, to my tiny little beginner's brain with all kinds of romantic notions still stuck in there, a lattice does not look as "organic" as I imagine would be ideal to spread the vibrations. (It looks "structural" to me, but does not look "sonic.") But then, I have already deviated so far away from the traditional construction that the refinements that Ervin has made probably would not be applicable to my designs.

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Last edited by Dennis Leahy on Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Alain
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Post by Alain » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:01 am

I thought some people would enjoy that... LOL

Dennis, that picture is the inside of a Somogyi.

Indeed Kim, to my eyes, they seemed capped and lap jointed as an X would be.

Here are a few more things I know from reading, studying and researching Somogyi. The bracing is very light but he doesn't take off anything at the intersections. In other words, where the small latice braces meet the X (or any other intersections), there is nothing taken off the height of the brace. If the brace is, say, .25 inches, he simply butts it up against the X and leaves it at that. I imagine he does gradually thin it out to next to nothing at the other end, near the rim. Traditionally, all braces on a guitar are profiled at both extremeties, not so in a Somogyi...nor on the next few upcomming Desforges' as well... :wink:

His bridge plates are bevelled, as Hesh pointed out. What I'm wondering is if he has a channel running through it to accomodate the lattice bracing. I imagine he does.

It would also seem, from the pic, that even the X isn't inlet into the kerf. Asides from from the upper brace, they all seem to finish just shy of the kerfed linning.

And what do you make of that 'patch' under the finger board extension? That looks like a thin hog veneer... Interesting.... very interesting indeed...

Also, there isn't a brace on there that is wider than .25 inches, not even the X...
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Alain
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Post by Alain » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:06 am

Hesh is right. I had copied that picture the first time it appeared. No one said anything at all back then and the thread flew under the radar.

Forward a few months and when the picture resurfaced, there was a major shit fest! Go figure...

I think the lattices are capped just as the X should be. I found it odd that there are no 'diamonds' on the centre seam, though. Maybe ES doesn't use them or they came later...

Still, a very cool and rare picture. You can send cheques or money orders to

Alain Desforges,
2116 County Road 2... :lol:
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Post by Hesh1956 » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:30 am

Dennis that is a really good point that you are making about how the lattice bracing looks more structural to you and not "sonic." I do the same thing and look at things in terms of how the structure will possibly be as a meridian for transmitting unadulterated vibration.

Great point Al and I think that you are right that the humps are caps. Duh..... I never considered that.

My eye gets drawn to the bridge plate often too. Notice the beveled edges that are not inlet into the X. Also notice the color of these edges? They are very dark, far darker than the surface of the BRW plate. My BRW plates with beveled edges don't look like Ervin's the edges are not as dark.

So what is darkening the beveled edges so very much? Is he flooding his bridge plates in thin CA? IS the bridge plate glued to the top with a CA?

If I were Ervin I would let a student take a pic of some crap, factory guitar and then post it on the forums so all lookers would believe it to be a Somogyi and then start copying what they saw..... :D

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Alain
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Post by Alain » Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:04 am

Image

Here's the pic again so we won't have to go back and forth between pages...

Yeah, that bridge plate does seem very dark to me as well... Also, notice how the lattices stop right where the dark bevelled portion of the plate begins, they don't seem to touch the X at all... Could this be a laminate of some sorts???

You're pretty tight with ES, Hesh... why don't you give him a shout and ask politely? Ha!
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Post by BillyT » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:08 pm

Alain wrote:Still, a very cool and rare picture. You can send cheques or money orders to
I have a copy of that pic already! Is it OK if I just send a "Buy1, Get1 Free" coupon from Der Wienerschnitzel [¹] ?
Hesh Breakstonye wrote:I do the same thing and look at things in terms of how the structure will possibly be as a meridian for transmitting unadulterated vibration.
Ahhhhh yes, the MTUV(meridian for transmitting unadulterated vibration)! I really, really can't tell you how glad I am you brought that up!.
:cl :cl :cl :cl :cl :cl :D

Hesh Buddy, do you find any concern with the tendency for either the MTUV, or my favorite, the "MTAV" to conflict with the CHR[²]!

[¹] Der Wienerschitzel - a small, yet ubiquitous hot dog restaurant chain located in the Southern California area of the United States of America. Noted for a tasty "Chili Dog" and a fine offering, the "Polish Sausage Sandwich". Combined with fries and a beverage make a great meal when your are on, or, more appropriately, about to be on the go!

[²] CHR - Cascading Harmonic Resonance, a phrase coined by a Mr. Hesh Breakstone of Ann Arbor, Michigan to explain his disturbing fixation to all things Somogyi, at the expense, particulary, of not finding why there's a "Y" in the name "Somogyi"!

:D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Post by BillyT » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:12 pm

2116 County Road 2...
Hey! Isn't Quebec Prison right on that roa..... Oh! I see! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Post by Serge » Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:29 pm

BillyT wrote:
2116 County Road 2...
Hey! Isn't Quebec Prison right on that roa..... Oh! I see! :lol: :lol: :lol:
As a partner in cri... guitar making, i find that addr..picture pretty amazing, don't you think? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:
Jesus, family, friends, guitar and mandolin : D

Paul B

Post by Paul B » Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:59 pm

I hadn't seen that pic before, in either of the threads at the OLF.

If you think about it, it kinda makes sense. I mean what are the modes of failure in a guitar?

If you use really light lower X braces you get bellying. So people tend to make them big enough to counteract that bellying. It looks to me like he's attacked that problem with the lattice (if you notice the way they go up onto the bridge plate). So he's making it strong enough not to belly, but really light at the same time. Pity the pic is not taken from an oblique angle.

Maybe you can have your cake and eat it.

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Post by Bob Connor » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:07 pm

I reckon that bridge plate is a two piece laminate.

Much stiffer - same weight.

There's also something strange going on with the lattice pieces that are running over the bridge plate.

If you eyeball the top one in the pic it doesn't run straight all the way through that lattice piece. It looks like its a separate piece of wood that's been glued in there.

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Post by Dennis Leahy » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:46 am

When you enlarge that Somogyi picture, it looks to me like the last legs of the lattice braces that cross the bridge plate (LBCBP) are indeed different pieces from the lattice. They appear laminated with a thin CF strip in the middle (at least the "bass" side one looks like it.) It also appears that the bridge plate has grooves dadoed in to accept those little LBCBP pieces. They do stop shy of the X-brace. The cap over the last lattice X ties the lattice to the bass side LBCBP; because the treble LBCBP leg did not have the benefit of borrowing the lattice X-cap, it needed another small piece to cap it.

As for the bridge plate: at first I thought maybe the bevels were burned by sanding on a disc sander, but also thought Hesh's idea that it is soaked in CA glue to be feasible. But, (unless that's a water or glue stain), the surface of the plate looks flatsawn, and the treble side beveled edge has hints of lines suggesting quartersawn - which lends credence to the idea that it is a laminated sandwich.

Anyway, that's what I see. But then, you should see what I see when I look at clouds!

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Somogyi

Post by Hesh1956 » Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:22 am

The only thing that I don't like about this forum software is that when I want to post a reply I can't do it with the rest of the thread available to me to scroll up to. So half the time I can't remember the comments of others. My apologies guys if I am redundant or neglect to give credit where credit is due.

I was just sitting here staring at the blown up picture and I see the following:

1) There are inlets on the top of the reversed linings for the back braces which look ladder to me and the inlets look pretty conventional.

2) This is not about the picture but I thought that I would mention it - his sides are NOT profiled for the domed top or back. The sides are doubled and laminated with epoxy providing a super stiff rim that needs no side supports or tapes what so ever.

3) It does look like some of the lattice up on the bridge plate is pieced together.

4) The more I look at the lattice work the more I believe that the grain orientation is not toward us as it would be with a conventionally braced guitar. In fact I think that it is rotated to be flat sawn and that each individual brace is in fact two strips laminated together. The caps might be the upper strip passing over the other intersecting brace. Maybe he does this by putting down two layers of lattice bracing with the lower layer butting and the upper layer bent to cap the intersections.

5) The upper transverse brace is inlet but it looks like it is nearly 1/4" thick where it is inlet - see the reversed kerfed linings pieced above the upper transverse brace?

6) The top is so very thin that you can see the rosette telegraphing through.

And with no disrespect intended the entire top is not very neat IMHO and I don't see any evidence of any lacky like me spending a couple of hours hitting it with 240 paper and cleaning it up. But this might be a pre-clean-up pic too.

And notice the rounded edges where ever he can? Kind of like sharp edges are not desirable for some reason.

Its an amazing photograph for sure.

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Re: Somogyi

Post by Dennis Leahy » Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:35 am

Hesh1956 wrote:The only thing that I don't like about this forum software is that when I want to post a reply I can't do it with the rest of the thread available to me to scroll up to. So half the time I can't remember the comments of others.
Hesh,

When you post a reply, look down below the message input area: Topic Review." (I don't know why, but I didn't see it at first either.)

Dennis
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Post by Bob Connor » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:20 am

The braces south of the soundhole are left shy of the linings and aren't feathered down to nothing, which is contrary to most theories.

It's a bit hard to tell but the X brace looks like it is tapered from the X interesection. Not parabolic.

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Post by Bob Connor » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:29 am

Essentially this is not a lot different from what a lot of us are already doing.

The two main departures that I can see are

1) the bridge plate is quite wide and stiff - maybe to counteract bridge bellying because the lattice bracing isn't that beefy.

2) The lattice bracing in the lower bout should produce more consistency in stiffness across the lower bout as opposed to the traditional two tone bars.

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Post by Bob Connor » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:50 am

What do you reckon the dimensions of this guitar are?

Lower bout width will make a signicant difference to the crosswise stiffness.

Paul B

Post by Paul B » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:27 am

Here's pic of Andy Zimmer's bracing after he took Ervin's course:

Image

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