peter.coombe wrote:I don't know why so many people get hung up on CNC.
I don't see anyone hung up on CNC Pete, your correct, it 'is' just another tool.
I think the issue for many traditional guitar buyers is how bean counters have taken control of that tool to yield it as a weapon to cut through labour cost. Sure their just doing their job. But the job they do has sweet FA to do with lutherie. They only have the short term bottom line in their sights and therefore are as predictable as any single minded slash merchant with penis finger they use to carry their resentment for anyone who 'can' actually make something with their hands, can be!!!....As I understand the only place a true bean counter will recognise as a rung up the ladder is placement in a HR department with autonomy to 'really' focus on honing their 'heartless bastard' skills..
Jokes aside its not CNC that is the problem mate. Its what happens when the corporate world involves itself in 'any' art form that is the problem. 'Regardless' of the price range, or the gold on black label fotoshopped by pimple faced Brendan in the marketing department between wacking off sessions, history shows that the end result will always be soulless, sterile, and ultimately represents poor value for the consumer, because they, the corporate 'not my job' collectives, simply don't recognise what the consumer sees as value, and that's because it is the very last thing on 'their' list of priorities. Therefore they can't help but leave their 2D stain all over their cold clammy end product because they just don't get 'it'.
The good news for hand builders is that players seem to be.
and the one I like most is "can you build me another?"
Yep, that is nice, but even better is - "I liked the one you made for me so much I want to buy the one you have for sale on your web page". Better because you don't have to make it, it is already made so all you have to do is to ship it, and also most likely the bank account is empty (damn wood purchases), so you really need to sell it and this is instant cash. Woo hoo, that happened to me just a few days before Christmas! Duplicate sales really show that you are appreciated, so are very nice indeed.
JJ model wrote:I attended a talk by a great company CEO and he said 60% of the price tag goes to marketing. so if their guitars are priced at 10K, 60% goes to that fat guy behind the desk...... so if a luthier sell his guitar for 4K that means he's got to do everything from cutting ( maybe ) to making the guitar complete and still not enough to feed his family....
Big business is much different to individial luthiers. My marketting budget is $750 a year for advertising. I do marketting that costs time, but not money, in addition to this.
We get 100% of the final price of each guitar made. Big industry doesn't. Take out 45% miniumum retail margins, distributor margins (20-50%), import duties, etc etc etc.
slowlearner wrote:Kim, what do you call soul-less?
Anything made to fit between margins instead of the buyers intended purpose Pete. Anything that is a result of that compromise which comes from spending more money on telling people how good something is than actually making it. Soulless is a thing that suffers from any of those other compromises which department 'X' must make in order to satisfy the 'demands' of department 'Y'. Soulless happens when you have so few people on the floor actually involved in 'making' a product, that it can somehow be allowed to go pear shaped in the very first of a thousand processes and continue to be built until finished, and nobody will notice or even care except the poor unlucky bugga who picks that lemon from the shelf. Instead of making music, he will be making war with some soulless bitch on the end of a phone as he attempts to get that company to accept responsibility for their stuff up.
But that won't be easy because department "W" has it's compromises to make also...Soulless because no a single person involved in the process knows anything much of the start, most bits in between, or the finish. They just know the little bit they get paid to do and they don't get enough to care about anything else if they can't be blamed for it... = Soulless.
Wow a lot of topics have been covered in this thread.
Cnc is fantastic, whilst Im old school luthier style, that is chisel and a plane, cnc is the way of repeatability and the future. Small builders can utilise cnc to do the bulk of the work.
Big business's use cnc because its about staying in business, how many people work for gibson world wide, what does an epiphone cost finished sitting on the shelf, how much does the manufacturer in this case "Gibson" get for making that guitar, less than say a 100 bucks on an epiphone Id be guessing, what luthier or small builder would build guitars on a commercial scale for $100, I certainly wouldn't.
Be it electric or acoustic cnc is a powerful tool.
The next powerful tool, are those advertising gurus that sit behind the desks all day, they can make an unknown product become word of mouth, thats no easy feat to achieve, these are all part of business these days.
simso wrote:Big business's use cnc because its about staying in business, how many people work for gibson world wide, what does an epiphone cost finished sitting on the shelf, how much does the manufacturer in this case "Gibson" get for making that guitar, less than say a 100 bucks on an epiphone Id be guessing, what luthier or small builder would build guitars on a commercial scale for $100, I certainly wouldn't.
And there it is right there. Its now all about volume for the big companies. Those that chose to expand into 'global economics' have made themselves slaves to the 'units per hour' mantra. The first few with CNC would have made heaps of money but what now that they all have it?? Of course they need to find new ways to cut cost in order to compete or die, Surely that must have a filtering affect on the solid quality of the product and IMO is the reason why good guitarist are now open to other options.
Just to be clear I will say this again as it appears that some people are still reading an attack on CNC in this thread. I don't see that at all, but CNC did allowed a huge down scaling in the level of skill required on the shop floor of a guitar factory and regardless of anything else, that just cannot be a good thing for the image of the product no matter how many they can pump out per hour.
Kim wrote:
Just to be clear I will say this again as it appears that some people are still reading an attack on CNC in this thread. I don't see that at all, but CNC did allowed a huge down scaling in the level of skill required on the shop floor of a guitar factory and regardless of anything else, that just cannot be a good thing for the image of the product no matter how many they can pump out per hour.
I disagree with this. To start with, let's assume the evil soulless corporations you talk about would be Martin, Taylor, Gibson and Fender (two electrics and two acoustics just for the hell of it), how is it that the quality of instruments from these companies are tenfold better now with all the machinery than they were in the 70's when they didn't have the machinery? The tooling helped bring the overal quality of all their instrument up big time.
Did the quality and level of the workers on the shopfloor become so much lower now than it was when there wasn't all that tooling? I doubt that very much. Factories are just that, factories. Whether you have machinery or not. There's not a lot of skill level required for one worker to stand at his station and do one step of a complete process over and over again, whether that's in today's "soulless factories" or soulless factories of the 50's and 60's, its all still the same. You will still have the few guys at the final stations that look over the setups and tuning and ensure they are good working instruments, those guys can't be replaced by machinery (at least until they can program cnc's to build instruments according to the Gore magic numbers )
At the end of the day, any company that builds instruments on a pro level has to do their bit of marketing, engineering, accounting and must become bean counters too to be able to earn a living doing this. Everything is build to a price, no matter if its a $100 guitar made in China or a custom made 5k instrument. There's not much point throwing all big corporations in one pile and call them names, they do what they do because they're a market for it, just like we do the same because there's a market for us, no point in getting our panties in a bunch over the way the world works.
Kim wrote:
Just to be clear I will say this again as it appears that some people are still reading an attack on CNC in this thread. I don't see that at all, but CNC did allowed a huge down scaling in the level of skill required on the shop floor of a guitar factory and regardless of anything else, that just cannot be a good thing for the image of the product no matter how many they can pump out per hour.
I disagree with this. To start with, let's assume the evil soulless corporations you talk about would be Martin, Taylor, Gibson and Fender (two electrics and two acoustics just for the hell of it), how is it that the quality of instruments from these companies are tenfold better now with all the machinery than they were in the 70's when they didn't have the machinery? The tooling helped bring the overal quality of all their instrument up big time.
Did the quality and level of the workers on the shopfloor become so much lower now than it was when there wasn't all that tooling? I doubt that very much. Factories are just that, factories. Whether you have machinery or not. There's not a lot of skill level required for one worker to stand at his station and do one step of a complete process over and over again, whether that's in today's "soulless factories" or soulless factories of the 50's and 60's, its all still the same.
The 70's?? Was there a Taylor guitars in the 70's?? Wasn't it around 65 when Leo Fender sold Fender guitars to CBS whose corporate cost cutting mentality went on to nearly destroy the brand until 85 when its salvation had been a buy back offer presented by the CBS manager of the factory and Fender employees and ex Fender employees who were all concerned about their job security and the products heritage if left in the hands of bean counters?? Wasn't it the 70's when under the leadership of CF Martin III (AKA Fred) and his corporate expansion drive that Martin Guitars came close to collapse as a result of debt from his bad investment choices and an 8 month long strike by Martin employees that had been initiated not by a demand for more money but from their dislike for how they were being treated because of Fred's corporate attitude???
Seriously you could not have picked a worse time in the history of American guitar making from which to make your comparison...Let's see how many owners would swap there 1930's, 40's 50's and perhaps in some cases, even 60's made instrument for a 2012 model..Any takers?? Nope and you probably won't find one because of the instruments vintage value. But that value did not come about by chance or just because the guitar is old. The value came about because many factories back then where not soulless. They carried the pride of the people working in them, you had people that were all that and others wanting to be just like them some day and the companies products shone because of it. THAT is what built trust in the brand and what we are seeing today with expansion into globalisation is those that had never been a part of it cashing in on that heritage. That can't last forever because despite what you suggest the instruments are simply not 10 times better. Sure the finish shines and the set-up is better than it was a few years back when their guitars became just another commodity, but today production is over seen by those who could just as easy be working at Macas so there's little image to sell any more because factory guitars have become just another thing, like a burger or a resin chair...nothing to it, just make as many as you can as cheaply as you can and sell them for as much as you can get away with..
The point is that it did not have to be that way. There are other companies that still hold the mystic, Laravee comes to mind, yes they use CNC 'but' they don't abuse CNC to the point where there is little left to admire of their craftsmanship..These companies understand that musical instruments are very special things that people grow very attached to. Those in the the 'units per hour' line of production don't care about that. Their market research probably tells them that 9 of every 10 guitars they make end up stashed unused under the bed within the first 3 months so they don't need to bother too much with anything but marketing... horses for courses I suppose but the OP asked if guitarist are getting smarter. I think they are because they can see what has happened to their family fav over the years and whilst they may be better than some of the past in some ways, there not overly happy about the white haired old bloke with the leather apron not being part of the picture any more....soulless.
Fair enough, remove 'Taylor' form my original post which was only there since they use Cnc and change 70’s for 50's or 60’s and my post still stands for what I said.
As you mentioned no one would drop their 60’s guitars for a 2012 because of value, NOT because of the quality or way it was built. The quality is still better now than it was then. As for Larivée, i'm sure there's bean counters there too, probably Jean himself. I'm sure they also have a 'unit per hour' requirement or he'd be out of business. As for pride of the factories in the 50's, well, i'm sorry but that time is long gone, (from your calculations since the 70's at least) welcome to the modern age.
In the end you've got you opinion of these companies and i've got mine. There's a place for these companies in the world as well as a place for you if you choose to sell your guitars made from the soul.
It seems that Cole Clark's CEO thinks the problem with falling sales is due to the fact that we can import goods under $1000 without paying GST
This ignores the fact that almost all his guitars and his competitors guitars are over the $1000 threshold
Tod
Music is everyone's posession. It's only publishers who think that people own it.
John Lennon
I'd say its probably because you can get something comparable to CC's instruments for under the $1000 threshold in the states, just like you can get a US build strat for $900 compared the local price of $2200
Phil Mailloux wrote:As you mentioned no one would drop their 60’s guitars for a 2012 because of value, NOT because of the quality or way it was built. The quality is still better now than it was then. As for Larivée, i'm sure there's bean counters there too, probably Jean himself. I'm sure they also have a 'unit per hour' requirement or he'd be out of business. As for pride of the factories in the 50's, well, i'm sorry but that time is long gone, (from your calculations since the 70's at least) welcome to the modern age.
In the end you've got you opinion of these companies and i've got mine. There's a place for these companies in the world as well as a place for you if you choose to sell your guitars made from the soul.
It depends what you call quality Phil. I agree that 'consistency' of general build quality has improved, but that in itself does not make them 'better' guitars. As I mentioned in a time when you had human beings standing at a benches using their skill and experience to assemble each instrument you would have had those among them that were very good at their job who were looked upon as something to aspire to by some and probably ignored by some who couldn't give a shit and just wanted to go home right after punching on.
But companies like Martin have been around for few hundred years, and time and economic changes can combine to allow filtering of the work force. An example of this was the great depression of the 1930's when guitar sales had all but died off completely. CF Martin had to shed most of his work force because sales where so low that it was costing money just to turn on the lights. But regardless of the economics that man was smart enough to keep a handful of the very best on the payroll to continue building guitars for stock pile ready for better economic times. But he also knew that once things turned around, these men would become the genesis of a new beginning when their skills and experience would allow him to train up a new workforce when that time came.
During that stock piling era, many of the guitars made by CF's hand picked crew where nothing short of outstanding in every regard...Granted they are rare and this has a huge impact on their current price, but the demand for those guitars is not simply because they are rare or old. Much of the demand is driven by the general understanding that they were made by the best of the best at CF Martin Co at a time when they had 'time' on their hands to fully apply their skills..Point being that for many, monetary value has nothing to do with their unwillingness to swap out their old guitar and it does have everything to do with the way it had been built...does anyone seriously believe that a CNC'ed units per hour 2012 production guitar is going to reach heirloom status any time soon??
As for Jean Larrivee and Bob Taylor for that matter, besides CNC they have another thing in common. They had both built many guitars themselves by hand before venturing in to CNC and therefore both had a complete understanding that its not simply a matter of gluing bits of wood together and painting them. Both understand that to be 'good' an instrument requires some soul to amalgamate 'those' bits of wood into an instrument that will become something to be proud of..I think Jean Larrivee explains it best in his 2008 video.
As I said the business can work without the units per hour mentality, Steve asked earlier who would do this for <$100 per unit? I asked who would want one that is so full of compromise? Yes there is a place for the big conglomerates and for me too, but 'that' is not the point of this topic. What I have tried to express here are my thoughts on why guitarist are looking further afield from the traditional factories but for some reason people seem to be reading my words as an attack upon CNC or an attack upon big companies. That is not my intention but I make no bones about pointing out the simple reality that when it comes to manufacturing "instruments" when you get to the point where you must cut the gutz out of cost from every angle you can identify just to remain in business then you probably not building instruments any more...your just building stuff to make money and stuff is not what good players are after.
Good post Kim, very concise and explains a lot about how you feel, its much more clear now, I get that. The overall aggressive tone you were using in your previous posts I'm sure are what people perceived as an attack on corporations/CNC's/whatever. That's certainly what I got out of it, to me it sounded more like some disgruntled builder who'd rather bash other brands then let his instruments do the talking. That Larrivée video is great btw
Phil Mailloux wrote:The overall aggressive tone you were using in your previous posts I'm sure are what people perceived as an attack on corporations/CNC's/whatever. That's certainly what I got out of it, to me it sounded more like some disgruntled builder who'd rather bash other brands then let his instruments do the talking.
Just words Phil, a bit of colourful cordial to hopefully inspire some exchange, after all that's my job as moderator no??
Actually as an admin you're supposed to be the one who's always nice, polite and politically correct to show the example and prevent the crowd from going wild but hey, every forum works differently anyway
Phil Mailloux wrote:I'd say its probably because you can get something comparable to CC's instruments for under the $1000 threshold in the states, just like you can get a US build strat for $900 compared the local price of $2200
Phil,
A CC fat lady 1 retails in the US for almost $2000, If you could buy something comparable with a case suitable for international shipping and pay USPS shipping costs to Australia and still land it here in one piece for under $1000 to avoid our GST you are doing very well Indeed, but I don’t believe this is being done in any numbers that would cause a downturn in sales for CC in Australia.
Me thinks the Factories problems are because “Guitarists are getting smarter “
Kim, is an A Hole anything like a F hole ?
Tod
Music is everyone's posession. It's only publishers who think that people own it.
John Lennon
I think the comment from the CC CEO was more meant that CC is losing sales from other brands because their models that are comparable to CC models are cheaper to buy overseas and imported here than buying the CC equivalent here. I also down think that it would make a big difference in sales here, I'd say the major reason for their downturn in business is the state of local shops and distributorships.
Tod Gilding wrote:Yep, I believe you could be right, and the state of local shops and distributorships caused because "Guitarists are getting smarter "
or guitarists are becoming cheaper and would rather buy sight unseen than inflated local prices
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