Dilemma...

[needsmorecowbel]

Hey guys I am finally putting the final touches on my woodworking shop and am making some fun mistakes along the way. I picked up two jointers recently A 6" woodfast and A ~10" woodfast jointer.
I was planning on installing a 240V inverter into one of the the jointers and then rewiring and running the machines as they were with their original 3 ph motors (perhaps even finding some way to easily unplug the inverter and then replug it into the other machine). However turns out according to a machinery guru that the inverters are in some way incompatible with the motors (configuration or wind I'm guessing he didn't go into details. He just examined the pictures of the motor housing and expressed concern)...one of the many stupid things that I've done recently that was poorly researched...

So my options are to:

A> Stick with the larger 10 inch jointer and spend a few hundred bucks on a single phase 2 HP motor & industrial "switch"... sell/ keep the 6 inch
B> Sell them both (definitely at a loss) chock it up to poor research, learn my lesson & go out and buy a single phase jointer
C> Buy a 3 Ph Transformer and reconnect the 3ph motors/ switches... preventing any future 3 PH issues in my shop...
D> Get 3 Ph (not really an option as my shed is 45 m from the Power Lines & 60-70m of three phase cable would be insanely expensive- not to mention having to deal with the council permits (as I am in the Inner suburbs of Melb) etc. etc.)
E> Drink a bottle of Red...
F> Have the motors adjusted/ re-wound...Fit the inverter and refit the original motors
G> Get someone who knows what they are doing to do it and just wear the extra two hundred bucks that that costs
in labour.

Any advice/ links would be amazing as I am picking this stuff as I go...

Stu

[DaveW]

bottle of red
its easier in the end to get pissed ? then you will shell out the extra money but wont be sorry till the next day?
Dave

[charangohabsburg]

I think the better the solution is, the more expensive it will turn out to be.

Why not ask these pros for advice? They write that it really is only a matter of plugging a device between power outlet and motor.

[liam_fnq]

Get the guru to articulate the actual problem. You don't need to understand it but if he can't write the problem down so that an average electrician can understand it I'd be getting a second opinion.

[Kim]

I have 3 phase to the shed, it's nice but with a 3hp single phase motor costing around the same as 1 x brand new in the box, not installed, 3 phase power outlet, it's hard to justify the luxury. No doubt a 3 phase motor will always out perform a single phase of the same Kw rating. However tech and design development has seen the performance gap responsible for creating that bit of common knowledge narrowed over the years to the point where you really only need to think about 3 phase if you have a commercial operation with machinery requiring >3 to 5hp and above and that is just overkill for the basic woodworking machinery we are likely to encounter in our sheds.

To your question Stu, I don't know what I would do with a 10" jointer? A 6" covers all my needs these days and I would find it hard to justify giving up floor space to anything larger, not because I lack floor space mind, but simply because all that extra metal is just sitting there and not really offering anything but a bit longer trip each time I needed to walk around the bloody thing and that would soon have me looking sideways asking myself, for it's extra length and girth, what does it offer the work I do that a smaller less intrusive machine does not? Having said that I 'would' trade up to an 8" machine if one happened along because I think the longer table would be nice to have and they are not that much larger than a 6" for that gain ..but it would need to be single phase just in case I ever move..

Cheers

Kim

[charangohabsburg]

it's nice but with a 3hp single phase motor costing around the same as 1 x brand new in the box, not installed, 3 phase power outlet, it's hard to justify the luxury. No doubt a 3 phase motor will always out perform a single phase of the same Kw rating.

Other than KW-rating and power efficiency, I think it is attractive because you maybe already have more than one 3-ph machine, and/or sometimes (used) 3-phase machinery can be bought cheaper than 1-phase machinery (exactly for the reason that many who would buy it can not plug it in without additional effort and upgrades).

[Ormsby Guitars]

I have 3 phase to the shed, it's nice but with a 3hp single phase motor costing around the same as 1 x brand new in the box, not installed, 3 phase power outlet,

Aint that the truth. Just spent $1800 getting two machines wired up 8m from the switchboard, and another virtually right next to the board. Hardwired them all, with isolating switches at the machines. Had to get an extra switch board as the original had run out of 'slots'.

Im just glad our new home had three phase to the shed already. The only other home we fell in love with required a channel cut through 17m of granite to get power to the shed (but a 12m x 9m shed). $37,000.

[needsmorecowbel]

Hope you got some nice slabs of granite out of it...

Stu

[P Bill]

I have 3 phase to the shed, it's nice but with a 3hp single phase motor costing around the same as 1 x brand new in the box, not installed, 3 phase power outlet,

Aint that the truth. Just spent $1800 getting two machines wired up 8m from the switchboard, and another virtually right next to the board. Hardwired them all, with isolating switches at the machines. Had to get an extra switch board as the original had run out of 'slots'.

Im just glad out new home had three phase to the shed already. The only other home we fell in love with required a channel cut through 17m of granite to get power to the shed (but a 12m x 9m shed). $37,000.

Jebus! What a difference 20 years makes. In 1994 I got 3 phase to the shed, a board, 240 points everywhere, lights, 3 machines hardwired and a 3 phase power point for $2,300. I just bought a used Waldown 3ph drillpress for $100. It's going to outlast me , very accurate and built like a tank.

[liam_fnq]

it's nice but with a 3hp single phase motor costing around the same as 1 x brand new in the box, not installed, 3 phase power outlet,

Cheers

Kim

Where on Earth do you shop? Where can I get one of these $70 3hp motors?

[kiwigeo]

Drink the red and then run your own 3 phase in from the nearest power pole.

[Kim]

it's nice but with a 3hp single phase motor costing around the same as 1 x brand new in the box, not installed, 3 phase power outlet,

Cheers

Kim

Where on Earth do you shop? Where can I get one of these $70 3hp motors?

A mate of mine is a sparky turned electrical engineer working at designing circuitry for industrial complexes. Around 1995 the shed was built, conduit with 4 core and earth had been dug in, inspected and back filled, slab poured, lights hung etc, etc and it was pretty much all ready for hookup. With my mate working away 2 on, 1 off, his time was limited. So one of my jobs was to chase up the gear on his shopping list while he was away.

I managed to get hold of most stuff needed, such as cable and conduit, din rail box, 1 phase outlets, light switches, RCD's, etc, etc, at a good price from a local electrical wholesale distributor. But when I asked they had no stock of 3 phase outlet with switch so I went and got a quote from Atkins Carlisle. Their retail price for 1 'only' 3 phase outlet was $235 + sales tax. I asked the guy to check he was looking at the right part #, the single unit price, as I did not need a full carton of them. He checked and confirmed the price @ $235 + tax for 1 only Clipsal 56C520, 3 phase power outlet with switch.

I walked out, rang around, and it was much the same everywhere I checked. My mate was due back the next day so I paid the piper just to get it done....and for that kind of money today, you certainly can buy a new 2.2kw single phase motor.

[Kamusur]

Stu
I definitely agree with Kim, I use either one of my mates Casadei combo machines daily (both have 12" plus usable blade widths) and have never, ever used the full width of those blades ever to do anything remotely luthier related. It can be a frightening thing to put a wide say even a 10" wide board across the jointer let me tell you (hope there will be an improvement when the shellix head arrives) , the thicknesser is an entirely different beast. My personal go to for anything of width is his wide belt and I sure as hell wouldn't choose to pass say an electric body in hardwood across those cutters so go for the 6" and pay someone else if you have to square or dress up some wide stock.

Steve

[liam_fnq]

it's nice but with a 3hp single phase motor costing around the same as 1 x brand new in the box, not installed, 3 phase power outlet,

Cheers

Kim

Where on Earth do you shop? Where can I get one of these $70 3hp motors?

A mate of mine is a sparky turned electrical engineer working at designing circuitry for industrial complexes. Around 1995 the shed was built, conduit with 4 core and earth had been dug in, inspected and back filled, slab poured, lights hung etc, etc and it was pretty much all ready for hookup. With my mate working away 2 on, 1 off, his time was limited. So one of my jobs was to chase up the gear on his shopping list while he was away.

I managed to get hold of most stuff needed, such as cable and conduit, din rail box, 1 phase outlets, light switches, RCD's, etc, etc, at a good price from a local electrical wholesale distributor. But when I asked they had no stock of 3 phase outlet with switch so I went and got a quote from Atkins Carlisle. Their retail price for 1 'only' 3 phase outlet was $235 + sales tax. I asked the guy to check he was looking at the right part #, the single unit price, as I did not need a full carton of them. He checked and confirmed the price @ $235 + tax for 1 only Clipsal 56C520, 3 phase power outlet with switch.

I walked out, rang around, and it was much the same everywhere I checked. My mate was due back the next day so I paid the piper just to get it done....and for that kind of money today, you certainly can buy a new 2.2kw single phase motor.

That makes sense. Anyone can find something massively overpriced, compare it something that's not and then complain.

There are company's that give my boss 75% off retail on electrical gear. Blokes like you must subsidise that by paying full retail price.

Here's the $71 outlets if anyone wants to know: http://www.sparkydirect.com.au/p/932057 ... ph510.html

[Kim]

I did not complain about a thing Liam. I paid what I did because my priority was to get the job done but none the less that was the going walk in off the street price in 1995, there were no online electrical suppliers and everything was not made in China so 3 phase fittings were expensive, and in terms of the OP's question, they still are.

So my point remains that setting up 3 phase in a guitar maker's shed is an expensive exerciser that offers little real benefit when those extra funds could be used toward good quality single phase machinery more than capable of doing the required work....What's your?

[needsmorecowbel]

I purchased the "10 inch" (It's really around 220-230) thinking that it would be insanely useful for resurfacing wider boards as I plan to have a resaw bandsaw down the track. I want to try and make it a fairly self sufficient shop in that I don't have to get mates to cut up things/ surface things. That was my logic in purchasing a 10 inch. As for floor space I'm not really fussed as certain machines will be tucked neatly away at the end of the day. To me, it seemed that using a 10 inch, while taking up a bit more space would allow for more workshop diversity. But I value your suggestions based on experience over my preconceptions.

I guess I'll have to do some research into what is most viable and suits best.

[Kim]

I do understand your point Stu but one of the bonuses of our craft is that we work with relatively short lengths of timber. That in itself minimises the impact cups and bows in longer lengths of timber have when being converted. Generally speaking, once docked to size, a billet can be quickly and easily flattened with a hand plane. In fact unless a board was badly cupped you could probably have it done and back on the bandsaw before you could set-up a jointer. I'm not ragging your ideas mate, I am just stating what I believe to be true, and that is unless your involved in production at a commercial level, some of the best gear out there will translates to nothing but over-kill when you consider what is really needed to get the job done well in our sheds.

If I were contemplating a jointer 'today', my focus would be an 8" single phase machine, possibly old school, 'but' certainly with conversion to a helix cutting head. That way you can use the machine more successfully with highly figured woods and they run far more quietly than a standard straight knife cutter head does. EDIT: Oh yeah, you can get rid of knife setting jigs and such with a helix head to


youtu.be/

Cheers

Kim

[P Bill]

I already have the heavy duty gear and it's overkill for MOST of what I do now. I baulk at paying end user price for back and side sets or droptops but will gladly pay premium for 250mm x 50mm x 2m-3m figured Blackwood. That's a lot of back and sides, even if some are archtops. If I find something interesting I can process it.

[needsmorecowbel]

Sorry Kim, to clarify I wasn't knocking back any of your suggestion at all I was merely trying to respond to your early question: Why a 10" and give you an idea of my thought process.

You guys have far more experience at this kind of stuff than I do so it's all learning for me...

I guess the main thing I am thinking at the moment is fixing these machines up (while staight forward) is going to cost me a fair bit of dosh whether if I do it myself or if I get someone to fix it. I'd have to do the maths but it seems that having the motor rewound/ buying a new motor and or inverter or just single phase motor and switch really isn't getting me much value for my money. The problem with the motor is that only 3 leads come out from inside motor to the junction box terminals. For the inverters you need six wires coming from the motor to the terminals and bridges between certain terminals. The motor is also not delta wound so this complicates things further.

Those Spiral head cutters just came down in price at carbatec for an 8 inch "X series" you are looking at like $1700- don't what the quality of those is like...


Stu

[Kim]

Those Spiral head cutters just came down in price at carbatec for an 8 inch "X series" you are looking at like $1700- don't what the quality of those is like...Stu

The quality is probably OK Stu but a top of the line 'made in USA' 8" helix retro fit cutter head will only set you back around $450usd + shipping ex USA. Buy a good nick second-hand old iron 8" single phase machine for around $500, throw in a couple of bearings for about $30, add $50 for a powertwist link belt and you end up with a refurbed top of the line machine for a bit over $1K..Or the 6" Woodfast you already have will do all that's really needed for instrument making. A replacement 2hp 2800rpm single phase motor would have more than enough power for a 6" and is chimp change these days. If you felt like parting with the cash to do the upgrade you could always then fit a helix head to it for around $350usd + shipping ex USA.

Must say though that if I were spending that kind of moe to upgrade a machine to a helix head it would need to be an 8" so I ended up with exactly what I 'desire' and the most flexibility to help justify the investment.


Cheers

Kim

[needsmorecowbel]

Interesting Ideas Kim...Can you link me to what you would see to be a good manufacturer of these heads.

Stu

[Kim]

Sure Stu:

I had earlier looked at Holben's site when posting prices and they seem a little more expensive.

Oella Saw and Tool do the same thing, a generic 8" USA made "Byrd Shelix" replacement head for $371usd + shipping and they do a 6" for $288. If an off the shelf model happens to fit your bearings and that is highly likely as most aussie made machinery were copied from delta etc, then the price will generally, but not always, be cheaper than this by app $50.

If you or anyone else decides to go down this track, once you have a set of verniers at hand, and a cutter head removed from the machine you wish to upgrade sitting in your lap, I suggest you call Dave Hicks @ Oella Saw and Tool and speak with him directly. You can then take the required measurements as instructed over the phone to be sure he can supply exactly what you need the first time.

At the end of last year I bought a set of TCT knives for my 6" jointer from Dave and found him to be a very helpful bloke. If I recall our discussion correctly, Dave said that the up-charge to have a replacement head machined to fit your machine is built into the price of buying a "generic" head i.e. For that price Oella expect to then be provided with dimensions to make their generic product line fit the customers machine, hence the extra $50 over an 'off the shelf' Delta head of the same cutter width.

http://www.oellasawandtool.com/products ... inter.html

http://www.oellasawandtool.com/products ... inter.html

P.S. USPS Priority is around $50.00usd and their checkout does Paypal.

Cheers

Kim

[needsmorecowbel]

Thanks Kim will do some more research and let you know How I go. I do like the idea of putting a new head on but I think the best thing to do at this point would be to get someone (a machinery expert) to come and have a look at the machines and give their opinion (not that much goes wrong with jointers) as to whether they are in an acceptable condition to be further modified.

Stu

[needsmorecowbel]

http://www.holbren.com/byrd-shelix-head ... inter.html

Bit odd that they have Woodfast as an option in "manufacturer"

[Kim]

http://www.holbren.com/byrd-shelix-head ... inter.html

Bit odd that they have Woodfast as an option in "manufacturer"

Not really Stu, they've probably already had an order from a Aussie with a Woodfast 10" who gave them details of their machine. They checked and found its the same shaft size etc as something they already carry on the shelf and decided to list it just to add to the impressive manufacturers list they have covered.

As I said before most all of the aussie made woodworking machinery was a design knock off from a well established USA or British made machines..more common USA because they did not even know that we existed, and shipping cost and gov tariffs back then made certain that few imports would enter the market to compete. That meant that even if the owner of the copyright did notice there was no money in it for them anyway, so back when tariffs were king Aussie manufacturers of every description had themselves a free for all and saved themselves a quid or two on R&D. As now, it was back then...'all' about the bottom line

Cheers

Kim