Ethical use of materials

[Ormsby Guitars]

I have a special run of 10th Anniversary guitars being planned now. 9 will be custom orders, within fixed options/specifications. One, will possibly be a little more special. It might be available, but I will probably just hold on to it. One thing that got me thinking, was how to make this one special guitar, the most valuable in terms of rarity.

I had a piano restorer hand me some ivory keys back in 2005/06. The piano they came from was beyond repair, and was discarded. The keys were damaged and couldnt be reused, but big enough for the inlay designs I have planned. Most of the keys were fine, and he used them in other restorations.

I have some Brazilian Rosewood, without documentation, sourced from a church in Europe. Documentation followed the timber to the USA, then from one supplier to another, and then was lost. The companies used were all reputable. However, that doesn't change the fact I don't have the relevant documents. Ive done everything I can to retrieve the documentation.

Obviously without paperwork, it can't be exported.

It seems to be the case, that reclaimed Brazilian Rosewood is ok to use for guitar construction. However, Ivory still has a stigma attached.

I'd be interested in others thought on all this. One part of me thinks that using Ivory is a no no. But Brazilian is ok. It could be said they are basically the same thing (sort of). If the Ivory is already processed, used, and reclaimed, is it ethically ok to use again? Ive got a little discussion going on over at facebook, and the general feedback is 50/50. Of course, these are mostly people who have no experience with CITES listings, don't understand the history of Brazilian Rosewood, etc.

[P Bill]

I have a bag of piano ivory as well. Is it ethical to use piano ivory, probably not. Ethical questions aside, I think you get more bang for your buck with pearl.

[nnickusa]

I'd use the Ivory if you want to. What else are you going to do with it? Keep it in a box and look at it every now and then? Throw it away?

Not to mention that anyone looking at it without the proper experience, would likely take it for plastic anyway...


2c

[Kamusur]

Definitely lie through your teeth.. tell em its some hybrid wood inlaid with plastic.

Steve

[Nick]

Yeah Sticky one, Elephants are my favourite animal and killing them solely for their tusks takes the worst kind of human being in my books. Having said that there is also the fact that these have already been used as piano keys for sometime & not as if you've had the Elephant killed directly for your build & there are plenty of old piano's still out there using Ivory. Hmmmmm, gonna use the crack in me arse for grip here & sit on the fence for this one sorry.

[Tod Gilding]

I Can't see that it is any different from the Brazilian Rosewood, Your not going to save an elephant by not using it
and there would not be to many people that would even recognise what it was

[liam_fnq]

I've never heard an argument against repurposing old ivory that made any logical sense and wasn't rooted in emotional (non)reasoning.

The elephants would probably not be upset if you used it.

[Nick]

My point was not from the re-use side of things, as people have said the 'donor' is dead now so the ivory may as well find another life. I was just thinking that just as I feel and your poll on FB proves that 50% of others feel the same, building for yourself maybe a good move but if you decide to move the guitar on at a later date, you may meet some problems with others mindset. It's not a simple matter of just saying "yeah go for it!" You have to decide where you eventually want the guitar to end up.

[P Bill]

I've used piano ivory a few times. As a small bit of inlay, it's not very interesting. It needs very strong grain to work.

That aside, using it is just one more thing portraying ivory as something desirable and helps fuel a demand. What if someone doesn't have piano ivory but does have illegal ivory and just calls it piano ivory ?

I think anything built today using ivory will be judged very harshly in the not too distant future.

[Ormsby Guitars]

What got this started, was my discussion with a guitar maker about my small stash of Brazilian. He asked to have some. Begged even. I then mentioned I was considering inlaying it with Ivory. "Oh, that's not a nice thing at all".

Why is Brazilian Rosewood so prized by makers, yet the Ivory is a big no-no? They are both classed Appendix I with CITES.

Even I consider Ivory as a sort of "shit, I dont know if I should...", but the Brazilian is "Cannot wait to use it!".

I guess part of that is that Ivory was once a "friendly animal". Brazilian is "just a tree".

For the record, I was just offered (today) some pre-ban whale, and a large cut of ivory. I said no straight away. I would not have said that if it was BRW...

[Kim]

I know it does not apply here but I think the USA Lacey Act does not even allow recycling of ivory. As I recall you can't even use ivory from one antique to repair or replace the missing components from another without contravening that law.

As for BRW, it to is a category one CITES material. I have not checked in a long while but last time I did CITES, and international agreement that does apply here, does not allow any movement of a category one restricted species whatsoever without proper CITES paper work, not wood (even in an instrument), not leaf, not seed, not even pollen, no material from that species at all under any circumstances without CITES documentation to confirm the sample or item containing it, was not obtained illegally.

The 'only' exception to that rule that I know of is for specimens required by an authorised body for scientific research that is specifically focused upon the preservation of that species in the wild. i.e. if you have an instrument containing BRW which does not have cites paperwork, no matter how old it is, do not attempt to move it across international boarders.

Cheers

Kim

[Ormsby Guitars]

I know it does not apply here but I think the USA Lacey Act does not even allow recycling of ivory. As I recall you can't even use ivory from one antique to repair or replace the missing components from another without contravening that law.

As for BRW, it to is a category one CITES material. I have not checked in a long while but last time I did CITES, and international agreement that does apply here, does not allow any movement of a category one restricted species whatsoever without proper CITES paper work, not wood (even in an instrument), not leaf, not seed, not even pollen, no material from that species at all under any circumstances without CITES documentation to confirm the sample or item containing it, was not obtained illegally.

The 'only' exception to that rule that I know of is for specimens required by an authorised body for scientific research that is specifically focused upon the preservation of that species in the wild. i.e. if you have an instrument containing BRW which does not have cites paperwork, no matter how old it is, do not attempt to move it across international boarders.

Cheers

Kim

Yep, that's all correct. You are not even allowed to, for example, remove an Ivory saddle. They ban the entire instrument.

[DarwinStrings]

I was given a piece of cut but never used ivory 25 years ago by a old fella(now deceased), who had acquired it for a craft project and never used it(it is a small "bark to bark" slab). It has lived in various draws ever since. I guess if I were to moralise about it I reckon I could plant a BRW tree from seed personally but could I breed a Elephant? maybe with a large effort I could but it would be easier to grow a tree. Good luck with your decision Perry.

Jim

[DarwinStrings]

Interesting Kim, I bought a 1905 Washburn from the USA well after BRW was CITES listed but before Lacey and it arrived without a hiccup, guess I got lucky there. Not a single crack in the BRW back and sides. The price was a small fraction of a set of badly sawn BRW in Australia. Oh and Perry I didn't even think about buying it even though that bit of Ivory lives in a draw.

Jim

[Kim]

Yeah Jimbo,

BRW has been an appendix 1 species for quite a while now but I don't think customs were really looking that hard at vintage stuff until fairly recently. The truth is that most operatives in the past would would have been more interested in discovering what's 'inside' the guitar than the wood 'of' the guitar. I reckon with all the publicity that illegal export/import of wood has had over the past couple of years would likely to have shifted that focus a bit though. But just to be clear I am not suggesting that one 'couldn't' move a BRW instrument without papers across international boarders these days. But if anyone tries then they stand a far greater chance of having it confiscated under CITES and perhaps being heavily prosecuted as well.

Cheers

Kim

[peter.coombe]

Many years ago I did a fair bit of work restoring vintage ivory piano keyboards. My piano teacher took up dealing in second hand pianos and hired me to help prepare them for sale. He would buy a piano cheap because the ivory on the keyboard was in poor condition and then I would restore the keyboard, clean and polish, and he would sell at a profit. Some keyboards were so bad we saved the ivory and replaced the key tops with plastic. Ivory is wonderful stuff to work with, and plastic does not have the same feel as real ivory on a piano keyboard, so it is well worth restoring a keyboard if not too badly damaged. Ivory will wear and chip and turn yellow, or the hide glue gives way and keys go missing. However, ivory can be sanded and bleached and polished easily. One property of ivory is that it is somewhat transparent, although that does vary from piece to piece. Ivory piano keys are backed with white paint and glued on with hide glue, so the white keys you see is mostly the white paint under the key, not the ivory itself. So I would think that piano key ivory would not be a particulalrly good inlay material to use. I would pass if I were you.

[Ormsby Guitars]

Well, these pieces are around 1mm thick, but I planned on CNCing a radius of 12" on to a 1mm white corian substrate and gluing the ivory to that. Mostly because I have to hold the ivory somehow, but also just in case I needed to level sand the ivory a little too much.

[tippie53]

In the USA it is ILLEGAL to reuse Ivory .There is a big difference between BWR and IVORY . Ivory comes from a living animal so this and tortoise are treated differently .
I agree that it seems like a senseless law but it is there to protect the surviving animals. Besides there are better materials to use. It is an ethical issue for sure . I have a few guitars with old ivory as that was original to the guitar but I prefer bone to my ear.

[EricDownunder]

This is interesting, only last night I was talking to someone on a similar subject, he told me in the back woods of Brazill still use slave labour for a lot of logging and if someone was on the payroll would be lucky to get $75 australian a week, so what would you rather support an animal that perished many years ago or modern day slavery, I would use the Ivorywith this knowledge.

[Ormsby Guitars]

This is interesting, only last night I was talking to someone on a similar subject, he told me in the back woods of Brazill still use slave labour for a lot of logging and if someone was on the payroll would be lucky to get $75 australian a week, so what would you rather support an animal that perished many years ago or modern day slavery, I would use the Ivorywith this knowledge.

Well, thats assuming the timber was cut using slave labour, recently.

[EricDownunder]

The chap who told me about this yesterday travels to an from frequently and he was referring to current times since xmass in other words. First I heard of it but I will see him again in a couple of months as he is about to go over there again.

[Ormsby Guitars]

The chap who told me about this yesterday travels to an from frequently and he was referring to current times since xmass in other words. First I heard of it but I will see him again in a couple of months as he is about to go over there again.

I dont doubt it happens. Just your post sounded like "Im not going to use old brazilian, because slavery might be involved in new harvests"

[Nick]

This is interesting, only last night I was talking to someone on a similar subject, he told me in the back woods of Brazill still use slave labour for a lot of logging and if someone was on the payroll would be lucky to get $75 australian a week, so what would you rather support an animal that perished many years ago or modern day slavery, I would use the Ivorywith this knowledge.

This happens all the time around the world & not just timber milling, coffee is a classic example but it doesn't stop the consumer reaching for the Nescafe or it's like at the local supermarket. Sometimes ignorance is the preferred path.

Did you make a decision as to what you were going to do Perry? I don't need to know WHAT it was, just interested as to whether you CAME to a decision.

[Ormsby Guitars]

Yes. Im going to offer it as an upgrade package for the anniversary guitars, at a decent premium. If people want bragging rights, they can have it, and they'll pay for it. If not, then they dont.

Since posting this thread, Ive had people come out of the woodwork and offer me whale bone, ivory chunks, and all sorts of stuff. Ive declined.