Are Guitarists getting smarter?

[Tod Gilding]

Over Christmas I met up with a few old guitarist friends that I hadn’t seen for awhile and some drinks and jamming took place.
But one thing that I noticed was that these guys were always Maton, CC, Martin or Factory made owners. Now they are all playing handcrafted guitars, one Gilet one Spira and another couple of Aussie builders that I hadn’t heard of.
But my question is. Are more guitarists moving away from the factory builds?

I also follow guitar sales on ebay, just out of interest and have noticed that factory made guitar sales have been disappointing and nonexistent at a time of year that I would expect things to be moving quicker.

I also notice that Billy Hyde has gone and also now Jacksons rare guitars gone.

So back to my question, are more guitarists buying from the small craftsman rather than the factories?

Or does it just seem that way?

What is the Forums Thoughts on this?

[P Bill]

I think you should include medium and tall craftsmen as well.

[Tod Gilding]

Do you alway's have to be so politically correct Bill ?

[Kim]

I think with so much info now freely available on the net what we are seeing is the result of those players looking for a 3K> guitar being able to do a bit of balanced research instead of simply relying on the names they are familiar with. My guess is that research is seeing many being left a bit cold by the CNC evolution that has taken over nearly every aspect of the building process at the old factory favourites.

The other thing they are probably discovering is that the factories have honed their efficiencies at the cost of attention to detail to the point where, out side of the programming room, there are few if any truly skilled craftsman left in the industry. With that the factories have no choice but to take a 'one size fits all' approach to playability and set up. I think what players are also now discovering as they look away from the factories, is that this same freely available information has seen a dramatic increase in the number of individuals who are now making and selling guitars and with the increase in competition, there is now little difference in the price of owning a hand crafted instrument compared to a half decent factory guitar.

When they then compare the potential to regain that old school attention to detail and the joy of owning a unique and skilfully hand crafted instrument should they push on with their search and find the builder who is right for them, I think many are beginning to see where the 'real' value is these days....Especially once they've sat down to jam with a mate or two whom have already made the step to the small shop and find their old icon is revealed for what it has been since the day they bought it...A well and truly over engineered guitar that compromises tonal output in order to avoid the negative impact upon profit margin and product reputation that comes with any warranty return.

jm2c

Kim

[Allen]

Perhaps it's the price point of the Hand Built vs. the nicer Factory Guitars, ie. not the $199 Chinese landfill items.

If you want a bit of a reality check when it comes to pricing your instruments just have a look at what something even somewhat comparable will cost the punter from the major players. And if you do any repairs, you will constantly be getting blokes come buy with something that they paid over $2k for and I'm always blown away at how ordinary they really are.

[P Bill]

What about when we move up to the custom shop? The $5,000 range.

[Allen]

Yes, that's my point. From most hand builders, that's the really pointy end of the scale in the their price structure.

[Ormsby Guitars]

It does come down to education. Ten years ago there were a LOT less guys out there building. There were also less people connecting to the net, etc. The hand builders couldnt afford the advertising budget, but on the net, we can be somewhat equal (and more pro-active in a lot of areas).

I think it also has a lot to do with "being one up on the Jones". Nearly every client on my books, has a friend that has one already, or at least knows a guy who has one. There is a little bit of 'competition' there to.

[Tod Gilding]

....Especially once they've sat down to jam with a mate or two whom have already made the step to the small shop and find their old icon is revealed for what it has been since the day they bought it...
jm2c

Kim

A good call Kim, I have found that even with my guitars I Jammed with a guitar teacher a few weeks back,he owns a Martin D35 and used to think it was the greatest thing , but not any more

[slowlearner]

It does come down to education. Ten years ago there were a LOT less guys out there building.

I think this has something to do with it. But also, a lot of people who wouldn't have built 10 years back due to price of timber, parts and info are giving building a go now instead of giving money to the factories or hand builders. I for one can't justify paying $3-4k for a custom bass. But I can justify spending $1500 on tools and building a bunch basses/guitars for less than $300 each. Some of these instruments have then ended up in the hands of people who'd pay $500-1000 for a factory instrument, so that's watering down their market as well.

At the same time, there are a bunch of hand builders who are retailing 'standard' models for less than $2000.
http://www.clementbass.com/web/Instrume ... fault.aspx
How can the big companies cope with that?

As for Hydes and Jacksons, the thing that finished them off was plain old greed. Both were overpriced and not interested in changing their businesses to keep up with the internet.

Having said all this, the thing stopping the big companies from going out of business over and over is iconic players. While ever people want to play what their "idol" played, Fender, Gibson, Martin... and dare I say it, Maton, are gonna be safe and a have a big market presence. Other thing being, despite what some people think about CNC, it's actually made guitars better and more playable. So, like you've said before, it's the $2-4k market that is the place hand builders really hit the hardest.

[charangohabsburg]

But I can justify spending $1500 on tools and building a bunch basses/guitars for less than $300 each.

OK, I'll take one!

[tippie53]

I have been building for 14 years and I now have a back log on orders. I think the buyers are more particular and are finding the production made instruments to sterile . Quality of tone is now replaced with warranty issues and cost of production. We as builders still like to make what we make the way we like to make them.

[Ormsby Guitars]

I have been building for 14 years and I now have a back log on orders. I think the buyers are more particular and are finding the production made instruments to sterile . Quality of tone is now replaced with warranty issues and cost of production. We as builders still like to make what we make the way we like to make them.

When you say backlog, what do you mean? One guitar yet to build? Two year waiting list? I went to your website and building guitars looks to be way down on your priority list.

[Kim]

Other thing being, despite what some people think about CNC, it's actually made guitars better and more playable.

In a lot of cases yes CNC has made guitars more playable, and at the lowest end of the market it certainly has made production guitars 'better' than they once were. But that was never going to be a difficult thing to achieve because there was a time when the cheapest guitars were nothing more than unplayable impostures that spewed out of guitar retail shops as small collections of premature landfill assembled in such a way that guarantees express delivery to the place of their destiny to either decompose slowly together to the rumbling clatter of a D9 under which they remain mostly protected from the putrid excretions of their neighbours by their heavy, thick, unfeeling, urethane condom...or reefed to salvation from the swill by the neck to have the worst of the stench and gooey lumps of 'sick society salad' hosed off before reincarnation on ebay under "vintage road worrier" where the cycle of it's life begins again...

So yes...I guess CNC has made 'those' guitars better because a robot that doesn't give a shit about 'anything' is always going to do a better job than some bloke who doesn't give a shit about anything 'and' given choice would probably eat his own spleen rather than stand there for $2 less per mind numbing hour than not nearly enough just so he can at least put 'something' on the table for his kids. But then we're not really talking about 'those' guitars, we're talking about players, not learners. We're talking about people who have been there and done that with cheap guitars years ago and who know enough to know a 'really' good instrument when they play one.

So my earlier point re; CNC had been directed specifically at the 3K> guitar because that is about the match point for a good quality guitar be it from factory or a one man workshop...Has CNC really made these guitars any better?? Unless one only measures 'better' by consistency of total production then I don't think it has. Even if only by sheer chance of 'that' particular bit of spruce being braced and tuned by 'that' particular worker, on 'that' particular day, back when things were done by hand at factories you would get some guitars that sounded great for the money and this gave the player some hope of jagging a gooden...But the truth is that at the price point being discussed, players have an expectation they will be buying something special, something which somebody skilled and devoted to their craft and the players music really cared about when they were making it...CNC has killed that image and destroyed the lure of chance in jagging the gooden...I think players, good players, are on to this and it has left them cold, because they've done their apprenticeship too, and after years of dedication they have a right to expect something more for their money than homogenised mahogany.

Cheers

Kim

[Tod Gilding]

I'm Glad you havn't lost your way with words Kim


If you put half as much effort and thought into your guitars as you do your posts I'm sure all your guitars would be goodens


"homogenised mahogany."

[slowlearner]

But I can justify spending $1500 on tools and building a bunch basses/guitars for less than $300 each.

OK, I'll take one!

Join the line...

p.s. $300 is the cost of materials.

Kim, there are a stack of $3k basses now being made on CNC. Warwick comes to mind. Course the finish and setup is done by hand. Warwicks are selling like hot cakes. People love em. And the lower end stuff is made on the same CNC programs as the highend stuff.

I reckon the issue with CNC is "snagging a baddun". A "baddun" really is bad now. That's what has turned people off. The crazy thing being, between processes, a well set up $800 guitar will play better than $3k off the shelf "elite model" guitar. I reckon that's what has turned people off. They reach for a new LP and it's a dog and they say, "why would I pay $3k for this dog, when handbuilder X's LP type guitar plays and sounds better... and I can watch/partner with him as he makes it". It's not just the guitar, it's the romance that goes with the build.

Now of course, there are people out there building guitars who are just hacks (that could be me, lol) and shonks, but most builders treat their clients better than the shop sales people. So I wouldn't be surprised to find out that what people enjoy as much as the handbuilt guitar is the customer service and relationship with the builder. Which is why, you find people who own 4 different guitars from the one hand builder. In many cases, these are all $3-4k instruments. The year of waiting that it takes to build the guitar allows the client to amass enough cash to pay for it, or pay it off in installment.

So what you're seeing with hand builders a return to the village/small town community feel of music that existed before the fenders and gibsons went into mass production. The web has just helped the process. What will be interesting is seeing how well these instruments age and hold their value as builders retire or die.

[P Bill]

Just playing devils advocate.

Shouldn't we lift our standard a bit ? Instead of saying we're better than a factory instrument that takes 2hrs to build, shouldn't we say we are as good or better than the custom shop and therefore incredible value ?

[slowlearner]

I think people already realize that.

[P Bill]

I have a long row to hoe before I'd claim I'm anywhere near a custom shop, as far as my acoustics go.

[peter.coombe]

I don't know why so many people get hung up on CNC. CNC is just a machine that follows a pre-programmed tool path, quickly and accurately. It's strength is in making many copies of the same part accurately, which is perfect in a factory environment where they make thousands of the same thing. However, it can also enable makers such as ourselves to do things we can't do by hand, and can also take the hack work away so you can keep building into older age. The down side is it takes time to program the tool path so one off things are not efficient. Used properly it can be a great asset. However, relying entirely on CNC is likely to produce instruments that mostly sound like crap because wood is a very inconsistent material. Some will sound great, but that is more due to chance than any thing else. Make enough exactly the same and some will have wood that has the right qualities that fits the CNC machined dimensions. Our role is to make instruments that fit the qualities of the wood so as to extract the optimum sound quality from a given piece of wood. Different pieces of wood will then sound consistently good. CNC can't do that, but it can get you into the ball park. Just because the factories use it does not mean it is evil.

[rocket]

[quote="charangohabsburg"][quote="slowlearner"] But I can justify spending $1500 on tools and building a bunch basses/guitars for less than $300 each.
I can't see the point of knocking out $300 instruments just to try and make a buck, i'd say that most of the professional luthiers in here make their living from tech work and repairs and the hand build will still take months to complete. I for one have no problem with spending 400-500 hours building a guitar that i know the customer will absolutely love, he's going to go away and show it off to his mates and down the track a bit i'll get another enquiry to build another hand made guitar. For me , i can't compare my product by quality or price to that of the big names in the stores, i'm in this for the love of it and a few $K on delivery and a happy customer will make it worth my while.

Happy new year.
Cheers,,

Rod.

[slowlearner]

Hey Rod,
I'm building the $300 instruments as practice builds to get skills under my belt. I'm using decent timber, but Chinese hardware to keep the cost down. Down the track, I'll build what I want. In the mean time, I get to try things out at low prices for thrills and giggles. At the same time, people around me get to benefit from my projects and I get feedback. Will I ever be a full time custom builder? Probably not. But I hope to build some great instruments for myself, friends and family.

P.s. Happy new year!

[Taffy Evans]

Very interesting topic, the views expressed above cross my mind a lot. I'm never going to get what it costs to build a guitar, not if time spent is a factor any away. But I get my rewards [as a lot of us do] from the joy/rewards of building/creating something for somebody that they "really love" and "never going to sell" or "this will become a family heirloom" and the one I like most is "can you build me another?". This is the pay off I get for building. Repairs pay the bills

I remember having a goal to build a guitar that sounded as good as one in this short story.....time to go get a coffee............

I was in the Martin guitar importers shop about 15 or so years ago when I was shown one of the top Martins they had brought in, they were proud of it and it sounded real good to me. The sound has stayed with me in my head [if that's possible] as I told myself one day that could be the sound of one of my guitars. But of course I'm not going to know unless I have that guitar and one of mine to do a comparison.
But wait there's more. A mate of mine was telling me that a D35 style guitar I had built for his friend in NSW was getting lots of playing, at gigs and the like. He said that when the guys get together for a jam the guitar I built is the one every one wants to play. Why am I happy about that......the other guitar he owns is a $8000.00 Martin [bought the same month he took delivery of mine]. So maybe I did get there.

Why am I a bit p** off? well I did not get even close to half of that. But gee's I feel good.

Hope ya coffee is not cold.

[Phil Mailloux]

The 'dream guitar/family heirloom/never going to sell' thing rarely happens. It certainly was a great feeling in the beginning to build a custom for someone who was absolutely excited about the prospect of building their dream bass but gas is an ever changing affliction, as soon as they've got their dream instrument they usually start dreaming up the next one and your instrument ends up becoming one of the brood, nothing wrong with that, that's reality. To tell the thruth often the customer doesn't really know what he wants for a dream instrument or will want to put everything but the kitchen sink in it because its a custom and he can and not listen to the luthier's advice. I don't know how many times i've had people telling me 'i should have listened to you' after having their instrument for a while. But saying all that, it is still a great feeling when someone calls you every once in a while to tell you their instrument is still the best thing ever

Charging low rates for your instruments/labour gets tiring really fast. You certainly need to start this way to learn the craft and get your name out there but at some point you end up with less and less free time, a whinging partner and the excitement of making someone's dream bass wears off and stress at meeting deadlines sets in. At some point you need to charge realistic prices. I.e. a good medium between what you should get paid and market prices. (I remember a 'luthier' once telling me he'd charge 7k for his electrics because his day job pays him $80 an hour - he had built *two* instruments at that time )

[JJ model]

I attended a talk by a great company CEO and he said 60% of the price tag goes to marketing. so if their guitars are priced at 10K, 60% goes to that fat guy behind the desk...... so if a luthier sell his guitar for 4K that means he's got to do everything from cutting ( maybe ) to making the guitar complete and still not enough to feed his family....