FISHEYES

[inoz]

Hi All,

I'm having trouble, I've bought a Fugi mini mite HVLP and am spraying NC but can't get it without the fisheyes.
I've read that they're caused by silicone particles stopping the finish adhering.
The fuji handbook says a few light mist coats should fix it - no luck.
I searched past posts and found one that said a coat of de waxed shellac will sort it out.
I bought feast watson's white polish but they're still there.
Did I buy the wrong stuff? any thoughts?

Ta,

Ray.

[kiwigeo]

You dont have a rubber non slip mat youve had your guitar sitting on by any chance?

[inoz]

Why yes I do, but I'm only doing the soundboard, and it's resting on the back, still a problem?

[vandenboom]

Hi Ray, I can't help you with your problem but I was interested to find out more about your Fuji minimite purchase.

Which model did you get? Who did you buy from - did you get it locally? why did you go for a HVLP turbine?

I have been stewing on going for a Mini-Mite III because I recently moved from a big suburban block where overspray from compressor + conversion gun in the backyard didn't bother anybody, to a townhouse with small courtyard where I just won't be able to use that gear. But I just don't know enough about HVLP turbines and whether I will be able to get away with the overspray produced at their claimed 6 PSI.

I'm in Melbourne, where there seems to be just one supplier (Spraychief). I would also struggle to pay their asking price and can land 240V version from US for about $300 below their price, but I am wary of warranty issues for this sort of product.

Interested in your comments. Thanks. Frank.

[simso]

Hi All,

I'm having trouble, I've bought a Fugi mini mite HVLP and am spraying NC but can't get it without the fisheyes.
I've read that they're caused by silicone particles stopping the finish adhering.
The fuji handbook says a few light mist coats should fix it - no luck.
I searched past posts and found one that said a coat of de waxed shellac will sort it out.
I bought feast watson's white polish but they're still there.
Did I buy the wrong stuff? any thoughts?

Ta,

Ray.

Nitro is great stuff to spray, but you have to make sure your substrate is not contaminated (sound board) and the spray unit is not contaminated.

Do you have photos of the finish, it may not be fisheyes- pursay.

[inoz]

Frank- I got it from spraycheif. I got a mini mite 3, because it'll handle NC and it was cheapest of the mini mite bunch. I got HVLP purely on the recommendation of of an old bloke who convinced me they had plenty of guts for what I wanted, with less over spray, in my small space.

Steve, sorry, no pics, but the unit is new, cleaned first with thinners, and the soundboard's just sanded with 180. I think it's fisheyes, 20 or 30 over the board, tiny but still visible and annoying, and when I get shitty and aim a big blob on one, I see it flow away from that spot.

[Kim]

What sort of wood? Did you grain fill? If so, what did you use?

Cheers

Kim

[Allen]

If you look very carefully at the centre of the fish eye, do you see anything like a small speck of dust, lint etc. If so then that will be the culprit. If not then it's contamination of either the substrate itself, or in the air lines.

You can usually fudge a fix by having a very thinned out mix of your lacquer. Say just 30% lacquer the rest thinners and misting on several light coats. Watch the surface as you spray, and if you see the fish eyes appear in the wet film, then you are going too wet. Back off on the product. Continue until you have several light coats sealing the substrate. Allow to dry for an hour or so and then try a coat mixed 50/50.

Again watch the surface very carefully. You may still get some fish eyes, but usually this trick will get you through. What you are trying to do is isolate the contamination from subsequent layers. Another fix may be to let soundboard dry and then drop fill each fish eye with more lacquer. Let dry and sand flat. Then try another spray session.

Unfortunately, silicon contamination on wood is incredibly difficult to get rid off as it gets right into the fibres and pores. Your usual fix of using prep sol (wax and grease remover) just isn't all that effective.

Good luck.

BTW. I've heard horror stories of contamination from those silicon rubber mats. And yes, they can contaminate every single surface in your work shop. Far better to use a piece of carpet or old blanket.

[kiwigeo]

Why yes I do, but I'm only doing the soundboard, and it's resting on the back, still a problem?

Sounds like its not the issue here but some of the rubber non slip mats have traces of silicone release agent left on the rubber which can get onto a guitar..caused me major grief on the back of a classical once.

If its the top thats fisheyeing and its spruce then one possible cause could be nibs poking through the finish. Ive had this happen with some furry Englemann. I now do a few egg white size sessions during pre finish preparation.

[inoz]

Thanks for the input folks. I think I may know what I've done. I've been blowing my sanding dust off with compressed air and I read where one bloke got fish eyes after this from minute oil particles in the compressed air.
I'll sand it all off and start again.
On a side note, I also read about "smoothie" a few drops in your product and you don't get fish eyes.
It is a silicone product so it contaminates your gear, but if you always use it is that a problem?

[kiwigeo]

Thanks for the input folks. I think I may know what I've done. I've been blowing my sanding dust off with compressed air and I read where one bloke got fish eyes after this from minute oil particles in the compressed air.
I'll sand it all off and start again.
On a side note, I also read about "smoothie" a few drops in your product and you don't get fish eyes.
It is a silicone product so it contaminates your gear, but if you always use it is that a problem?

The product appears to be naptha plus a silicone oil.

I dunno.......if you sand back properly and ensure you get rid of as much dust as you can and avid contamination of the wood surface you should be ok.

Allen has probably heard of the stuff as he's the resident spraying guru

[sam]

Sorry to hear of your frustrations with finishing.

I didn't note the brand of your nc. As manufacturers of finishes are keen to maintain the reputations of their
products, some will even offer free troubleshooting advice. If you are using a pre-finish surface preparation,
they will want it to be part of the finishing 'system' you are using for the final finish. This advice is usually
aimed at chemical compatibility issues of multi-pack (eg epoxy) finishes, but probably also has some relevance
here.

Also, it is a good practice to have an in-line (coalescing) filter between your compressor and gun. I assume that your supply air is dry.

Best regards,

Sam

[Allen]

WHAT EVER YOU DO.....DO NOT USE SMOOTHIE!

Repeat until you start saying it in your sleep.

Forever more your finishes will be absolute crap. Your shed will be contaminated as will you equipment and the instrument itself.

You're only going to get oil on you instrument from blowing it off if your compressor doesn't have an oil and water separator. If it doesn't then ask your self why not, then go out and get one.

I don't know what else I can tell you. Find the problem and fix it. Usually be elimination of all reasonable possibilities, then look at the improbable if you still can find a remedy.

But again let me make this perfectly clear.....DO NOT EVER EVEN THINK OF BRINGING IN SMOOTHIE TO YOUR SHED!

[liam_fnq]

I usually finish my smoothies before I even get to the shed.....

[Allen]

I saw you Sunday morning. You were finished before you even got near the shed.

[liam_fnq]

Shoulda stayed on the smoothies Sat night.

[kiwigeo]

WHAT EVER YOU DO.....DO NOT USE SMOOTHIE!

Repeat until you start saying it in your sleep.

Forever more your finishes will be absolute crap. Your shed will be contaminated as will you equipment and the instrument itself.

You're only going to get oil on you instrument from blowing it off if your compressor doesn't have an oil and water separator. If it doesn't then ask your self why not, then go out and get one.

I don't know what else I can tell you. Find the problem and fix it. Usually be elimination of all reasonable possibilities, then look at the improbable if you still can find a remedy.

But again let me make this perfectly clear.....DO NOT EVER EVEN THINK OF BRINGING IN SMOOTHIE TO YOUR SHED!

Silicon ain't all bad......

[inoz]

Kim- It's engleman and I didn't bother filling
Sam- It's Mirotone 3150
Allen -Soo.....that's a no on Smoothie then

I'll sand it all off and try again

Thanks,

Ray

[kiwigeo]

Kim- It's engleman and I didn't bother filling
Sam- It's Mirotone 3150
Allen -Soo.....that's a no on Smoothie then

I'll sand it all off and try again

Thanks,

Ray

Ray, if its Englemann then definitely check for nibs poking through the finish. They can look like just fish eyes.

[Kim]

Ray, because Englemann commonly grows with a twist, the tops often have a degree of runout, or short grain. I would think this would make it more prone to the nibbing effect Martin has described so perhaps this is the only problem. If so then a light sand when hardened off and sealed could well do the trick.

Edit: Marty beat me by 'that' much.

Cheers

Kim

[kiwigeo]

Ive found egg white size sessions very effective with Englemann.

[rocket]

I'm sorry, forgive my ignorance but what is SMOOTHIE? besides the milk drink that is!

Rod.

[kiwigeo]

I'm sorry, forgive my ignorance but what is SMOOTHIE? besides the milk drink that is!

Rod.

Its a 3M product........supposed to prevent fisheyes and add to the gloss of your finish. 3M seem to think its hot shit but Allen doesn't. I'd take Allen's sagely advice and not use the stuff.

[Allen]

There use to be several brands out there by different names, and most paint companies of old had their proprietary product. But as far as I know 3M is about the only company still marketing the stuff. I just couldn't imagine the look on any automotive paint suppliers face if I asked for some Smoothie today. First he'd piss himself laughing, and then he'd be arranging for some upgrade training for the paint department.

Essentially it's pure silicon in a solvent base of some sort. The idea being that by adding silicon to your paint you will eliminate fish eyes by making one great big fish eye that has no where to go except flow out smooth and level itself. The idea is sound, and it does work.....But at a very high price. The finish will be absolute crap. Looking like it wants to fish eye if only it could. It will not have the gloss, clarity, durability etc. as if it wasn't there.

And forever more you'll have contaminated your paint booth and workshop.

[J.F. Custom]

WHAT EVER YOU DO.....DO NOT USE SMOOTHIE! Repeat until you start saying it in your sleep... *snip*...DO NOT EVER EVEN THINK OF BRINGING IN SMOOTHIE TO YOUR SHED!

So what, do you work for them Allen? Perhaps in the marketing and sales department ??!

Geez - in the interests of full disclosure...

So I'm a bit confused - perhaps you could clarify your position on this product ?



Jeremy.