Claytons Carved Top Copier

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P Bill
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Claytons Carved Top Copier

Post by P Bill » Fri May 11, 2012 10:17 am

This is a method I've developed to establish the depth of the main arches on an archtop. I may have reinvented the wheel. If anyone has seen a similar technique, could you please post a link so I can compare notes.

Establishing the depths on any kind of carving is the hardest part. Working with patterns, cutting and fitting on an archtop takes me forever. With this method I can establish accurate depths very quickly. Then power plane as close as I dare. This is where the fun part of the carving begins. The rest, for me, is tedious waste removal.

This would be useful for one-off new arching patterns or a new master for a copy router.

When I came to the arching at the waist I had to start planing back the base of the router. The red crayon marks indicate where the router deviates from the actual pattern. This isn't a bad thing because that's where the recarve area is.

I didn't do a pattern for the upper bouts, just hand sawed to a guesstimated depth. This area is almost straight, so I've under sawn it and will carve the arches later.


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This was only going to be a test piece. It's flat sawn Hoop with blue mold and some insect attack. I am going to make a no frills guitar out of it, with a flat sawn back as well. This will be a personal instrument and something I can monitor over the years to see how it behaves. It's the same timber as the cupboard in the last photo. It also has blue mold and insect attack. Surface has been textured with a plane and polished with some walnut dirty shellac. I want to go for the same surface on the guitar.

Hope you enjoy.
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Re: Claytons Carved Top Copier

Post by nnickusa » Fri May 11, 2012 3:15 pm

Category heading: Dumb Ass Questions.....

1. Is the back carved also? Never had a real carved top, just laminates, and never looked inside...

2. If yes, how are you doing that?

3. If no, why isn't it?

4. If f-off Nick, go find a book, OK, but I thought I'd ask.....

Thanks,
I wish I was half the man my dog thinks I am....

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Nick

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Re: Claytons Carved Top Copier

Post by rocket » Fri May 11, 2012 4:03 pm

IMG_0994 (Custom).JPG
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Bill , i use the drill stop depth method to shape my arching on the outside and similar method for rough thicknessing inside, virtually as Bob describes in his book, i find that it works quite well.
Cheers,,
Rod.
Like I said before the crash, " Hit the bloody thing, it won't hit ya back

www.octiganguitars.com

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P Bill
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Re: Claytons Carved Top Copier

Post by P Bill » Fri May 11, 2012 4:05 pm

Yes ,fully carved Nick. A common way , after the top has been carved, is to drill to a stopped depth from the back. Waste removed and then graduated thickness from the recurve( thin ) to the Centre (thickest).
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Re: Claytons Carved Top Copier

Post by P Bill » Fri May 11, 2012 4:11 pm

rocket wrote:
IMG_0994 (Custom).JPG
IMG_0993 (Custom).JPG
Bill , i use the drill stop depth method to shape my arching on the outside and similar method for rough thicknessing inside, virtually as Bob describes in his book, i find that it works quite well.
Cheers,,
Rod.
I know Rod, I'm just want to go right to the arch and work from there.
"Were you drying your nails or waving me good bye?" Tom Waits

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Re: Claytons Carved Top Copier

Post by P Bill » Fri May 11, 2012 4:29 pm

P Bill wrote:
rocket wrote:
IMG_0994 (Custom).JPG
IMG_0993 (Custom).JPG
Bill , i use the drill stop depth method to shape my arching on the outside and similar method for rough thicknessing inside, virtually as Bob describes in his book, i find that it works quite well.
Cheers,,
Rod.
I know Rod, I'm just want to go right to the arch and work from there.
I should clarify , I've been bitten on the bum. I'll bore a bit around the waist .
"Were you drying your nails or waving me good bye?" Tom Waits

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Re: Claytons Carved Top Copier

Post by ozziebluesman » Fri May 11, 2012 4:56 pm

G'day Bill,

Great concept here mate. I reckon it would be a time saver too. I did the same as Rocket and used the drill stop method in the drill press.

I have a spruce top to carve so can I send it down for some precision routing please? :wink:

Cheers

Alan
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P Bill
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Re: Claytons Carved Top Copier

Post by P Bill » Fri May 11, 2012 7:13 pm

ozziebluesman wrote:G'day Bill,

Great concept here mate. I reckon it would be a time saver too. I did the same as Rocket and used the drill stop method in the drill press.

I have a spruce top to carve so can I send it down for some precision routing please? :wink:

Cheers

Alan
Cheers Alan,

I guess what I haven't articulated yet is the way I think It will go.
I won't have to touch a pattern till the next top. I do most of my carving with a curved spoke shave ,inside and out. Now I just connect the dots by feel, knowing my archs are correct. I can feel much more with my hands than I can see.
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Re: Claytons Carved Top Copier Update

Post by P Bill » Sun May 13, 2012 10:28 am

I carved the top Saturday morning. Next time I'll rout the upper bout arches that slowed me down. The waist was gouged and planed. Connecting the sections was very controlled because I always knew the exact shape and location of the arches. I realize this isn't for everybody but it suits the way I work.
After working with this top I've decided not to go any farther.

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Re: Claytons Carved Top Copier

Post by simso » Sun May 13, 2012 12:31 pm

I take my hat of to all you guys, way way to time consuming for me. I couldnt envisage being able to do that and make a profit from it.
Steve
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Re: Claytons Carved Top Copier

Post by rocket » Sun May 13, 2012 1:04 pm

Profit? who makes a profit? a labour of love is what it is!! :roll:
Rod.
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Re: Claytons Carved Top Copier

Post by P Bill » Sun May 13, 2012 3:06 pm

simso wrote:I take my hat of to all you guys, way way to time consuming for me. I couldnt envisage being able to do that and make a profit from it.
Profit ? Que ? On another forum full time luthiery was a topic. The overall tone was this is a great time to be a muso!
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Re: Claytons Carved Top Copier

Post by Nick » Mon May 14, 2012 6:13 am

simso wrote:I take my hat of to all you guys, way way to time consuming for me. I couldnt envisage being able to do that and make a profit from it.
That's why hand carved archies are a bit more expensive than flat tops Steve, I just wish customers could appreciate that fact too when then go "HOW MUCH???!!!" :wink: It really is a rewarding process if you aren't looking at the bottom line, there's nothing quite like hogging,shaving & scraping wood from a solid lump of two dimensional timber to end up with something that has that magic 'ping' and a rather attractive three dimensional shape to it. :D
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Re: Claytons Carved Top Copier

Post by auscab » Mon May 14, 2012 2:08 pm

Nice pictures and work there Bill, The Planes ,did you build them or convert them ?

I was talking to a guy who has been building for a living for about the last 30 years, it could be more, and he made me laugh when he described why he preferred building arch tops to steel strings , he called the steel string a geometric nightmare :lol: compared to an arch top. this surprised me? they look a lot more complex. if you take the shaping of the top and back out of the equation from that point on ,is it a more simple construction ? no radiused edges. but that's about it, isn't it?

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P Bill
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Re: Claytons Carved Top Copier

Post by P Bill » Mon May 14, 2012 4:14 pm

Cheers Rob,

I made the large plane, the middle one is Asian that I serrated the iron and the small one is a cheapie I stuck a timber sole onto and shaped.
I haven't made a flat top yet. The more I find out about them the more I drag the chain.
I think archtop construction is more forgiving as far as bracing and timber selection go. The seasonal movement of the top and back are hardly restricted at all. The sides are a constant width and of course bridge positioning is esay.
I've only made archtop acoustic instruments, db,guitar mandos and viola. Something about them I really enjoy more than just the carving.
That said I still want to build a flattop.
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Re: Claytons Carved Top Copier

Post by P Bill » Mon May 14, 2012 8:14 pm

When I mentioned bracing I was thinking parallel. At this stage, for me, the only one I would consider. Archtops are also X braced which changes everything.
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Re: Claytons Carved Top Copier

Post by simso » Mon May 14, 2012 9:00 pm

Nick wrote:
simso wrote: It really is a rewarding process if you aren't looking at the bottom line, there's nothing quite like hogging,shaving & scraping wood from a solid lump of two dimensional timber to end up with something that has that magic 'ping' and a rather attractive three dimensional shape to it. :D
I know exactly what you are talking about, just in todays economic climate commisions like this just dont happen much any more.

Hence the advent of cnc, it helps reduce the labour charge component of jobs.
Steve
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Re: Claytons Carved Top Copier

Post by P Bill » Tue May 15, 2012 8:02 am

I looked into CNC awhile ago, just to see. A guy in the states will carve a top or back for $80 usd. Your timber or his. I don't have a link but it wasn't hard to find.
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Re: Claytons Carved Top Copier

Post by rocket » Tue May 15, 2012 3:29 pm

IMG_1742.JPG
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Just got this one out of the cnc room, rush job, cut the "f" holes and arched it simultaneously, just got to clean it up by hand now don't know where i'll get the time for that, never mind i'll save time on no bracing, that'll boost my bottom line! :roll: :roll: :roll:
Like I said before the crash, " Hit the bloody thing, it won't hit ya back

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Re: Claytons Carved Top Copier

Post by P Bill » Tue May 15, 2012 6:45 pm

Maybe at least a sound post under each foot. :dri
"Were you drying your nails or waving me good bye?" Tom Waits

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