A word to the wise to anyone considering buying wood from K A Nishad of Nishan Trades, Cochin, India. Don't pay any money in advance of receiving the wood. For an initial test purchase of 10 b&s sets and 10 fingerboards I arranged with him to make a part payment in advance with the balance to be paid on receipt of satisfactory material, thinking that this would ensure that material of suitable quality would be supplied. I stipulated dry wood, dimensions and matching of backs and sides as well as that it should be at least of the quality of the photographs he sent.
Without going into pointless detail, suffice it to say that when I received the wood, about 5 months after ordering it, the quality was awful. Most of it is unusable. Three months later I am still waiting for replacement wood which I was promised. I know it will never come.
Buying wood from India
Re: Buying wood from India
Sorry to hear your tale of whoa (insert name here) but hope you can stick around at the ANZLF to share more with us than your warning.
I take the warning further to advice against anybody taking the risk of using international money order, or 'any' form of funds transfer that is not credit card backed or Paypal backed, to make payment for 'anything' from 'anywhere' out side of your own international borders. If some one is asking you to send them money in such a way that you will have no recourse should things go wrong, you need to ask yourself why they are doing that.
You need to ask why it is that if 'anybody' with a valid email address and a legitimate, verified banking account, can quickly and easily set up a Paypal account to receive funds 'instantly' and 'economically' from any international source, why they haven't done so? No matter where on earth they are, if a vendor is legitimate with a forward thinking outlook of building their enterprise based upon integrity and customer focus, why would they insist on making it so difficult and expensive for their customers to pay them?
I guess some may argue that the vendor may be old school. That they are not net savvy and prefer to do business the way they have always done it. If that is the case then how did you find them?? Some may argue that credit card fees or Paypal fees are a deterrent as they eat into their profit margin. Well that would be true, but international money orders and wires cost a good bit of money also, not just to buy but also to cash out at the other end. If the vendor is so concerned about 4% or what ever they pay to Paypal, why can't they load that on the purchase price when it will cost their customer at least that anyway?
The more you think about it, the more it becomes quite clear that in this day and age, if you are dealing with a legitimate and honest business concern, there is absolutely 'no' benefit whatsoever for 'either' party in an international vendor insisting upon payment via wired funds transfer or international money order in lieu of a credit card or Paypal based transaction. It does not make sense economically and it does not make sense in terms of customer convenience.
It therefore stands to reason that a vendor seeking to avoid credit card or Paypal based payments would only be doing so for the sole purpose of avoiding the security those methods offer to 'their' customers. In other words, such a vendor is net savvy and new school enough to understand completely that if they can coheres you into sending your money to them direct, and you end up not happy with what they provide (if they provide anything at all), then there is sweet fuck all you can do about it because they have effectively ripped you off here in Australia or New Zealand or where ever on earth you were when you sent the money. They know that the police in your country can't do anything about it because they have no jurisdiction in their country and they know that the police in their country would not, and could not do anything about it because they have not broken any law in their own country.
On the other hand, if they rip you off in a credit card or Paypal transaction...well, those companies all have a registered business interest in every nation on earth. These guys understand that if you complain about them and then get a refund from your credit provider, that the credit provider is then assuming ownership of your loss. So your nefarious foreign friend would find himself in a situation where he has now defrauded a company protected by the laws of 'his' nation, and he knows that when his local branch of your credit card company or Paypal call the police, he will be charged and vigorously prosecuted under his national laws because not a single government on the face of this earth is prepared to stand idly by and allow anybody to rip off a bank, because no matter where you are, that is 'the' biggest taboo.
This does not automatically mean that a vendor who insist upon international money order or direct wire is an out and out thief, but it should leave you questioning the capacity and willingness of even those vendors with whom you have had successful transactions with in the past, to stand behind the products they are selling you. To take India as an example, that country is driven by a business culture. With so many people it has to be if they are to maintain growth in their economy. So everyone is looking for an opertunity and many turn to the internet as an obvious resource. With the rise in popularity of lutherie as a sport we have seen such a boom in the demand and price of tonewoods, that servicing this craft is a no-brainer for anyone sitting cross legged on the end of their bed with a laptop, an internet connection, an idea and access to cheap wood.....that narrows it down to only a couple of billion entrepreneurs.
So lets look at the rough demographics of Indian Rosewood milling and marketing that even the honest entrepreneur would need to deal with. There are many mills cutting wood in India, but few would be willing to do business with a local who does not have cash. Even less would be willing to waste there time on a 6 sets at a time buyer because these places are interested in BIG business, they sell wood by the container load and if they are going to let someone through the gate for a few sets at a time, they are going to make it worth their while and up-charge for the interruption. Even less of them would be willing to allow a local 6 sets at a time buyer to cherry pick through their stash....I would imagine that most of these places would be under contract. They would have had some guy from China who has spent the last 30 years as a procurement officer in timber products and knows 'exactly' what he wants, fly in from Shanghai one morning, and lay down the law on what his company will and what his company will not accept for the 2.4 million bucks that are on the table.
So the situation is that there is little to no room for cherry picking by small time locals in this environment, even 'if', and that in itself is a very big IF, your guy knows what to look for in good 'tonewood'..If a mill is going to do business at all with this bloke it is likely to be on the mills terms and that is likely to be a 'luck of the draw' arrangement at best unless he has the cash to buy a volume that commands the interest of someone that matters. So it probably comes down to this, if our internet entrepreneur turns up at the local mill with a hundred bucks in his pocket on a day when the mill is cutting a really nice log, then if that is your cash he is carrying in his pocket, you will probably get some really nice wood. Wet wood, 'highly' unlikely that the back and sides will ever be cut from the same billet wood because even the big boys like LMI and Allied Lutherie are not afforded that option, but nice wood all the same. If however he turns up with your cash on a day when the mill is converting whatever they can from the shit stick currently being felled in their allotment, then it is the 'mill' that will do the cherry picking to keep the Chinaman smiling, and you are going to be really disappointed that you ever parted with your money. Because even if your guy is a nice bloke full of good intent and just someone trying to earn an honest dollar, the truth has always been that he just does not have the cash or the clout to help you out and now that his source has moved into a crappy area and will in there for at least 6 months before they hit good logs again, he has no option but to pass the parcel and that, 'that' is precisely why he had to set you up to wear this all on your own from the very start of your business relationship, because even if he is hoping for the best for you, he knew this day would come and it was always going to be a matter of when for the small fish in the big pond.
So spin the wheel by all means, it may work out OK for you. But in my opinion, if you want to buy guarantee good, cheap, Indian rosewood direct from India, then the first thing you will need to buy is a plane ticket so you can travel from mill to mill yourself and see what they currently have coming out the other end. But take the cash for at least a cube or they probably won't even let you through the gate. The path should be easy to follow though because it would be well worn for good reason. By the way, what I have said in this thread is not in anyway intended to be racist or bigoted, its just what I consider to be the economic realities of a risky situation...buyer beware indeed.
Cheers
Kim
I take the warning further to advice against anybody taking the risk of using international money order, or 'any' form of funds transfer that is not credit card backed or Paypal backed, to make payment for 'anything' from 'anywhere' out side of your own international borders. If some one is asking you to send them money in such a way that you will have no recourse should things go wrong, you need to ask yourself why they are doing that.
You need to ask why it is that if 'anybody' with a valid email address and a legitimate, verified banking account, can quickly and easily set up a Paypal account to receive funds 'instantly' and 'economically' from any international source, why they haven't done so? No matter where on earth they are, if a vendor is legitimate with a forward thinking outlook of building their enterprise based upon integrity and customer focus, why would they insist on making it so difficult and expensive for their customers to pay them?
I guess some may argue that the vendor may be old school. That they are not net savvy and prefer to do business the way they have always done it. If that is the case then how did you find them?? Some may argue that credit card fees or Paypal fees are a deterrent as they eat into their profit margin. Well that would be true, but international money orders and wires cost a good bit of money also, not just to buy but also to cash out at the other end. If the vendor is so concerned about 4% or what ever they pay to Paypal, why can't they load that on the purchase price when it will cost their customer at least that anyway?
The more you think about it, the more it becomes quite clear that in this day and age, if you are dealing with a legitimate and honest business concern, there is absolutely 'no' benefit whatsoever for 'either' party in an international vendor insisting upon payment via wired funds transfer or international money order in lieu of a credit card or Paypal based transaction. It does not make sense economically and it does not make sense in terms of customer convenience.
It therefore stands to reason that a vendor seeking to avoid credit card or Paypal based payments would only be doing so for the sole purpose of avoiding the security those methods offer to 'their' customers. In other words, such a vendor is net savvy and new school enough to understand completely that if they can coheres you into sending your money to them direct, and you end up not happy with what they provide (if they provide anything at all), then there is sweet fuck all you can do about it because they have effectively ripped you off here in Australia or New Zealand or where ever on earth you were when you sent the money. They know that the police in your country can't do anything about it because they have no jurisdiction in their country and they know that the police in their country would not, and could not do anything about it because they have not broken any law in their own country.
On the other hand, if they rip you off in a credit card or Paypal transaction...well, those companies all have a registered business interest in every nation on earth. These guys understand that if you complain about them and then get a refund from your credit provider, that the credit provider is then assuming ownership of your loss. So your nefarious foreign friend would find himself in a situation where he has now defrauded a company protected by the laws of 'his' nation, and he knows that when his local branch of your credit card company or Paypal call the police, he will be charged and vigorously prosecuted under his national laws because not a single government on the face of this earth is prepared to stand idly by and allow anybody to rip off a bank, because no matter where you are, that is 'the' biggest taboo.
This does not automatically mean that a vendor who insist upon international money order or direct wire is an out and out thief, but it should leave you questioning the capacity and willingness of even those vendors with whom you have had successful transactions with in the past, to stand behind the products they are selling you. To take India as an example, that country is driven by a business culture. With so many people it has to be if they are to maintain growth in their economy. So everyone is looking for an opertunity and many turn to the internet as an obvious resource. With the rise in popularity of lutherie as a sport we have seen such a boom in the demand and price of tonewoods, that servicing this craft is a no-brainer for anyone sitting cross legged on the end of their bed with a laptop, an internet connection, an idea and access to cheap wood.....that narrows it down to only a couple of billion entrepreneurs.
So lets look at the rough demographics of Indian Rosewood milling and marketing that even the honest entrepreneur would need to deal with. There are many mills cutting wood in India, but few would be willing to do business with a local who does not have cash. Even less would be willing to waste there time on a 6 sets at a time buyer because these places are interested in BIG business, they sell wood by the container load and if they are going to let someone through the gate for a few sets at a time, they are going to make it worth their while and up-charge for the interruption. Even less of them would be willing to allow a local 6 sets at a time buyer to cherry pick through their stash....I would imagine that most of these places would be under contract. They would have had some guy from China who has spent the last 30 years as a procurement officer in timber products and knows 'exactly' what he wants, fly in from Shanghai one morning, and lay down the law on what his company will and what his company will not accept for the 2.4 million bucks that are on the table.
So the situation is that there is little to no room for cherry picking by small time locals in this environment, even 'if', and that in itself is a very big IF, your guy knows what to look for in good 'tonewood'..If a mill is going to do business at all with this bloke it is likely to be on the mills terms and that is likely to be a 'luck of the draw' arrangement at best unless he has the cash to buy a volume that commands the interest of someone that matters. So it probably comes down to this, if our internet entrepreneur turns up at the local mill with a hundred bucks in his pocket on a day when the mill is cutting a really nice log, then if that is your cash he is carrying in his pocket, you will probably get some really nice wood. Wet wood, 'highly' unlikely that the back and sides will ever be cut from the same billet wood because even the big boys like LMI and Allied Lutherie are not afforded that option, but nice wood all the same. If however he turns up with your cash on a day when the mill is converting whatever they can from the shit stick currently being felled in their allotment, then it is the 'mill' that will do the cherry picking to keep the Chinaman smiling, and you are going to be really disappointed that you ever parted with your money. Because even if your guy is a nice bloke full of good intent and just someone trying to earn an honest dollar, the truth has always been that he just does not have the cash or the clout to help you out and now that his source has moved into a crappy area and will in there for at least 6 months before they hit good logs again, he has no option but to pass the parcel and that, 'that' is precisely why he had to set you up to wear this all on your own from the very start of your business relationship, because even if he is hoping for the best for you, he knew this day would come and it was always going to be a matter of when for the small fish in the big pond.
So spin the wheel by all means, it may work out OK for you. But in my opinion, if you want to buy guarantee good, cheap, Indian rosewood direct from India, then the first thing you will need to buy is a plane ticket so you can travel from mill to mill yourself and see what they currently have coming out the other end. But take the cash for at least a cube or they probably won't even let you through the gate. The path should be easy to follow though because it would be well worn for good reason. By the way, what I have said in this thread is not in anyway intended to be racist or bigoted, its just what I consider to be the economic realities of a risky situation...buyer beware indeed.
Cheers
Kim
-
ashparekh
Re: Buying wood from India
Dear Sir,
Sorry to hear about this but you know anybody who is buying from cochin is going to face problem. This is because all the woods from there are plantation material which is ideal for factories and not for luthiers who are making high end quality. I have said on the forum before also but people due to consideration of low price get involved in this. Cannot help about this. Hardly people know what is a good quality tonewood for luthiers because loads of people supply only to factories which buy all the stuff and these guys are paid as per their quality and standards. Sorry ot hear about this. I know paypal and credit card taking is difficult as I too face the problem but the government rules and reserve bank of india does not consider these things as official mode of payment. They only give importance to payments received by bank and it is also possible that if the payment has not come through bank the cargo gets held in customs.
Sorry to hear about this but you know anybody who is buying from cochin is going to face problem. This is because all the woods from there are plantation material which is ideal for factories and not for luthiers who are making high end quality. I have said on the forum before also but people due to consideration of low price get involved in this. Cannot help about this. Hardly people know what is a good quality tonewood for luthiers because loads of people supply only to factories which buy all the stuff and these guys are paid as per their quality and standards. Sorry ot hear about this. I know paypal and credit card taking is difficult as I too face the problem but the government rules and reserve bank of india does not consider these things as official mode of payment. They only give importance to payments received by bank and it is also possible that if the payment has not come through bank the cargo gets held in customs.
Re: Buying wood from India
I am not in India to know the exact arrangements that were or had been in place in the past but it would appear that as of 26/02/10, the Reserve Bank of India (RBI) has allowed Paypal to recommence international transactions.
https://www.thepaypalblog.com/2010/02/r ... -to-india/
My read is that they had done so with with certain restrictions listed at the above link and these include.
1: No foreign transactions to an Indian Paypal account are to exceed $500usd (I am not sure that this is still the case today but it was a figure touted in the first iteration I read about 6 month ago)
2: Indian Paypal account holders can only transfer funds from their Paypal account, to the nominated bank account to which their PAN (permanent account number) had been registered when they signed up.
3: In order to withdraw funds to their PAN registered banking facility, a user must provide a "Purpose Code" that identifies the type of transaction responsible for generated the income. (e.g. defines the source of income from one business activity category to the next.. export, local sale goods, local sales service etc.)
From what I read, these rules were deemed necessary by the RBI for taxation purposes. It had come to their attention that many Indian Paypal account holders in the past had not been declaring their full taxable income. At that time the RBI (Indian Government), had decided to suspend all international transactions to Paypal accounts until they had a way of knowing how much money was being withheld by Paypal account holders and what business activity they were being used for, and how much those account holders were not paying in tax.
Since the above rules were put in place by the Indian Government more than 18 months to address these issues there does not appear to be a single valid reason for any legitimate 'tax paying' Indian based business operation to continue to refuse Paypal as a valid form of payment. Paypal transactions are now clearly viewed as valid in the eyes of the Indian Government and the Indian banking industry, as too are credit card transactions...Therefore the only reasons I can imagine that a vendor would refuse to afford their potential customers the safety, security and convenience of those payment methods and try and convince them that the situation in India is other than it actually is, would be if they are trying to negate that safety and security away from those customers or they trying to avoid 'taxable' income, or both. I stand by my original statement that sending money by direct transfer to anywhere outside of your own national boarders is very high risk. I am not saying that doing so can never work out well for both parties, but it certainly places all the cards in the other guys hand should 'he' decide that this deal is not going to work out so well for you.
Cheers
Kim
https://www.thepaypalblog.com/2010/02/r ... -to-india/
My read is that they had done so with with certain restrictions listed at the above link and these include.
1: No foreign transactions to an Indian Paypal account are to exceed $500usd (I am not sure that this is still the case today but it was a figure touted in the first iteration I read about 6 month ago)
2: Indian Paypal account holders can only transfer funds from their Paypal account, to the nominated bank account to which their PAN (permanent account number) had been registered when they signed up.
3: In order to withdraw funds to their PAN registered banking facility, a user must provide a "Purpose Code" that identifies the type of transaction responsible for generated the income. (e.g. defines the source of income from one business activity category to the next.. export, local sale goods, local sales service etc.)
From what I read, these rules were deemed necessary by the RBI for taxation purposes. It had come to their attention that many Indian Paypal account holders in the past had not been declaring their full taxable income. At that time the RBI (Indian Government), had decided to suspend all international transactions to Paypal accounts until they had a way of knowing how much money was being withheld by Paypal account holders and what business activity they were being used for, and how much those account holders were not paying in tax.
Since the above rules were put in place by the Indian Government more than 18 months to address these issues there does not appear to be a single valid reason for any legitimate 'tax paying' Indian based business operation to continue to refuse Paypal as a valid form of payment. Paypal transactions are now clearly viewed as valid in the eyes of the Indian Government and the Indian banking industry, as too are credit card transactions...Therefore the only reasons I can imagine that a vendor would refuse to afford their potential customers the safety, security and convenience of those payment methods and try and convince them that the situation in India is other than it actually is, would be if they are trying to negate that safety and security away from those customers or they trying to avoid 'taxable' income, or both. I stand by my original statement that sending money by direct transfer to anywhere outside of your own national boarders is very high risk. I am not saying that doing so can never work out well for both parties, but it certainly places all the cards in the other guys hand should 'he' decide that this deal is not going to work out so well for you.
Cheers
Kim
Re: Buying wood from India
I'm happy to pay by direct credit to a bank account to vendors like Tim Spittle who I have known for years and have a good business relationship with. I am however not going to stick my neck out and pay by bank transfer to a tonewood dealer I don't know from a bar of soap.....I'm taking on all the risk in the transaction..the vendor is taking on NO risk at all. If the deal goes bad I have no recourse and can kiss my money goodbye.
Martin
-
ashparekh
Re: Buying wood from India
martin this depends upon how do you do transaction and also you must have heard about the transaction of other customers with the company. I know there are some tonewood sellers in Australia also so it depends upon how the person feels comfortable with the other guy.
Re: Buying wood from India
Ashok,ashparekh wrote:martin this depends upon how do you do transaction and also you must have heard about the transaction of other customers with the company. I know there are some tonewood sellers in Australia also so it depends upon how the person feels comfortable with the other guy.
True, I have heard of people who have had happy dealings with you but I have also learned of others who have not had happy dealings with you. After ending up with a load of mouldy wood from one Canadian supplier I tend to chose my suppliers very carefully these days and unfortunately I'm not comfortable dealing with you. The spamming activities of a number of your country men also puts me off dealing with tonewood dealers from your part of the world.
I have suppliers in the US and also Canada. In all cases these suppliers offer the option of paying via PayPal or credit card which offer a much higher chance of getting money back in the event of problems with the transaction. I've seen arguments from you in a number of posts as to why you cant offer PayPal as a payment option but so far I remain unconvinced.
Regards Martin
Martin
-
matthew
- Blackwood
- Posts: 1193
- Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:16 pm
- Location: Sydney, Inner West
- Contact:
Re: Buying wood from India
Reading that article, the responses, and other articles such as this one, it does seem that using Paypal in India is not as simple as it is over here.
Here, I believe you can park your incoming funds in a foreign currency and use them to purchase goods in that currency very easily with no Foreign Exchange fees. In India, the limitations apparently imposed by Paypal to get around being treated like a bank by the RBI mean that virtually every transaction has to be converted back into Rupees and deposited into your bank, attracting FX fees of course, and probably transaction fees as well. But from what I read, many Indian vendors appear to have regular problems and delays actually receiving their fund transfers back from Paypal. And Paypal apparently will not accept payments in rupees, which I suppose forces another set of FX transaction fees if you want to buy something via Paypal.
It seems to me that its all very well to consider lowering the risk to your buyers by giving them a Paypal option - Paypal will willingly accept the money and presumably earn something from it too - but if there's a risk that you cannot easily access that money from Paypal, then a sensible vendor is also going to need to consider that risk as well! If I was in India, I'd probably think that Paypal was ripping me off, too.
Here, I believe you can park your incoming funds in a foreign currency and use them to purchase goods in that currency very easily with no Foreign Exchange fees. In India, the limitations apparently imposed by Paypal to get around being treated like a bank by the RBI mean that virtually every transaction has to be converted back into Rupees and deposited into your bank, attracting FX fees of course, and probably transaction fees as well. But from what I read, many Indian vendors appear to have regular problems and delays actually receiving their fund transfers back from Paypal. And Paypal apparently will not accept payments in rupees, which I suppose forces another set of FX transaction fees if you want to buy something via Paypal.
It seems to me that its all very well to consider lowering the risk to your buyers by giving them a Paypal option - Paypal will willingly accept the money and presumably earn something from it too - but if there's a risk that you cannot easily access that money from Paypal, then a sensible vendor is also going to need to consider that risk as well! If I was in India, I'd probably think that Paypal was ripping me off, too.
Re: Buying wood from India
Why do Indian suppliers not offer credit card payment as an option?
Martin
Re: Buying wood from India
Why can't fees be factored into the sale price just like any other business does?? Wiring money direct costs the customer an amount over the initial sale of goods that quite likely exceeds the sellers FX and Paypal or CC transaction fees combined. So adding them to the initial sale price will not really change the bottom line for the customer other than making the deal far more secure and convenient for them. The upside for the seller would be that those fees are a legitimate consequence of doing business and must surely be claimable against their taxable income. If everything is on the up and up with the trader, then I fail to see the issue with doing business that way for either party.
Cheers
Kim
Cheers
Kim
-
ashparekh
Re: Buying wood from India
Indian companies do not offer credit card because the problem is the bank charges for credit card transaction is very high about 7% + gateway charges 3% + forex charges + exchange difference and all these things make us very difficult. If we use credit card probably forget making profit but we end up in loss so cannot do this. I know it is going to be difficult but people who need top quality and know us very well even a lot of luthiers in Australia give us orders as we know trust is the main thing for us and we are proud of our quality. No problem for us. I am a one man show but still we cater to lots of luthiers all over the world. I really wish we can take paypal and credit card but their charges are very high and cannot do the needful.
Re: Buying wood from India
Hi Gent's ,
My two bobs Worth ,
This topic has been Debated to death , my learnings are, Unless you are making Bulk instruments and have a really skinny bottom line that depends on your next meal ,you are, in the Instance of EIR far better off to Pay the extra with StewMac , LMI or One of the Other trusted tonewood suppliers.
For This small extra Charge , you get quality EIR , the protection of Paypal , Recourse and customer service if your not satisfied and Concise no Bullshit correspondance. If you want to buy locally there is a guy In melbourne who sells EIR on Ebay and has some pretty good Stuff for a Reasonable price ( I have had some pretty good set's from him) and the Guy in west Oz his name escapes me at the Moment , I beleive, is also a Supplier of Quality EIR, So I must ask the Question, why do we feel the need to risk all those posative benefits , for the sake of saving a few bucks, when time and time again , people ignore these facts it degenerates into a turd farm , sure a few people have had some good timber , but it seems awfully hit and miss , I work to hard for my money and would rather be making guitars than going through the crap some members experiance with dodgy tonewood suppliers .
A few simple rules ;
* Buy from ANZLF prefered suppliers .
* Pay With Paypal.
* if it sounds to good to be True , it probably is ( or it's Amway).
* Ask around BEFORE you buy.
* if you ignore all of these rule, apply lube liberally and brace yourself and don't expect pitty.
And so endith my turn on the soapbox.
Paul.
My two bobs Worth ,
This topic has been Debated to death , my learnings are, Unless you are making Bulk instruments and have a really skinny bottom line that depends on your next meal ,you are, in the Instance of EIR far better off to Pay the extra with StewMac , LMI or One of the Other trusted tonewood suppliers.
For This small extra Charge , you get quality EIR , the protection of Paypal , Recourse and customer service if your not satisfied and Concise no Bullshit correspondance. If you want to buy locally there is a guy In melbourne who sells EIR on Ebay and has some pretty good Stuff for a Reasonable price ( I have had some pretty good set's from him) and the Guy in west Oz his name escapes me at the Moment , I beleive, is also a Supplier of Quality EIR, So I must ask the Question, why do we feel the need to risk all those posative benefits , for the sake of saving a few bucks, when time and time again , people ignore these facts it degenerates into a turd farm , sure a few people have had some good timber , but it seems awfully hit and miss , I work to hard for my money and would rather be making guitars than going through the crap some members experiance with dodgy tonewood suppliers .
A few simple rules ;
* Buy from ANZLF prefered suppliers .
* Pay With Paypal.
* if it sounds to good to be True , it probably is ( or it's Amway).
* Ask around BEFORE you buy.
* if you ignore all of these rule, apply lube liberally and brace yourself and don't expect pitty.
And so endith my turn on the soapbox.
Paul.
Paul .
Re: Buying wood from India
Scott Wise at Margaret River.ozwood wrote:....and the Guy in west Oz his name escapes me at the Moment , I beleive, is also a Supplier of Quality EIR.
Martin
Re: Buying wood from India
I was once on my way to Patna & got stuck in Muzaffarpur with no money.
There were four banks in town.
Only one had "Foreign Exchange Facility".
I sat at the desk with the "Foreign Exchange" sign on it, right next to the occupied "Bank Manager's" desk, for 5 hours while a "Foreign Exchange Officer" came up from Patna to serve me.
When the "Foreign Exchange Officer" arrived he took one look at my travellers cheques and politely told me "sorry, we do not accept American Express"!
I gave up on Indian banks there & then......
There were four banks in town.
Only one had "Foreign Exchange Facility".
I sat at the desk with the "Foreign Exchange" sign on it, right next to the occupied "Bank Manager's" desk, for 5 hours while a "Foreign Exchange Officer" came up from Patna to serve me.
When the "Foreign Exchange Officer" arrived he took one look at my travellers cheques and politely told me "sorry, we do not accept American Express"!
I gave up on Indian banks there & then......
Craig
I'm not the sharpest tool in my shed
I'm not the sharpest tool in my shed
Re: Buying wood from India
What was the Bank Manager doing all this time?Clancy wrote:I was once on my way to Patna & got stuck in Muzaffarpur with no money.
There were four banks in town.
Only one had "Foreign Exchange Facility".
I sat at the desk with the "Foreign Exchange" sign on it, right next to the occupied "Bank Manager's" desk, for 5 hours while a "Foreign Exchange Officer" came up from Patna to serve me.
When the "Foreign Exchange Officer" arrived he took one look at my travellers cheques and politely told me "sorry, we do not accept American Express"!
I gave up on Indian banks there & then......
Martin
Re: Buying wood from India
Thanks Paul,ozwood wrote:Hi Gent's ,
My two bobs Worth ,
This topic has been Debated to death , my learnings are, Unless you are making Bulk instruments and have a really skinny bottom line that depends on your next meal ,you are, in the Instance of EIR far better off to Pay the extra with StewMac , LMI or One of the Other trusted tonewood suppliers.
For This small extra Charge , you get quality EIR , the protection of Paypal , Recourse and customer service if your not satisfied and Concise no Bullshit correspondance. If you want to buy locally there is a guy In melbourne who sells EIR on Ebay and has some pretty good Stuff for a Reasonable price ( I have had some pretty good set's from him) and the Guy in west Oz his name escapes me at the Moment , I beleive, is also a Supplier of Quality EIR, So I must ask the Question, why do we feel the need to risk all those posative benefits , for the sake of saving a few bucks, when time and time again , people ignore these facts it degenerates into a turd farm , sure a few people have had some good timber , but it seems awfully hit and miss , I work to hard for my money and would rather be making guitars than going through the crap some members experiance with dodgy tonewood suppliers .
A few simple rules ;
* Buy from ANZLF prefered suppliers .
* Pay With Paypal.
* if it sounds to good to be True , it probably is ( or it's Amway).
* Ask around BEFORE you buy.
* if you ignore all of these rule, apply lube liberally and brace yourself and don't expect pitty.
And so endith my turn on the soapbox.
Paul.
That pretty much sums it up and is much the same message Taffy Evans put forward as a past customer of ashparek when this topic came up last time. Yes dealing direct with India can work, but by the time you do the leg work and pay for the wire transfer fees etc, chances are you will be left wondering why you had assumed all the risk for very little savings over that which you would have paid to have the complete security of a know and trusted source with a service record for jumping through hoops to keep their customers satisfied.
The lure of promise of superior quality as reward for the buyer assuming all the risk when dealing direct with India simply does not stack up either. The buying power behind companies like Allied Lutherie who are based in Healdsburg USA, combined with the experience of its owner Todd Taggart whom, (I have only just discovered) partners the only mill located in India that is currently cutting 'fully matched' EIR guitar sets, means that they get the pick of the veneer and instrument grade litter in each of the 5 Government log auctions that are held in India each year. Not only that, but Allied also set up their mill with a kiln and wide belt sander so the wood can be properly graded and then shipped dry.
This is not the case when you buy from a small vendor, the wood will ship wet and the buyer must then take a wait and see approach after it is stickered away. This can be OK if you have time to wait and your climate is similar to where the wood was cut. But if you are in an area with a considerably lower RH, then checking or splitting could become an issue..try getting a refund then even if you did pay with Paypal.
So I guess it all points to dealing local if you can. I have not dealt direct with Scott Wise to give a personal endorsement from my own buying experience. But I have met Scott on a few occasions and have no doubt in my mind that he would be a great option if someone was after a few sets of EIR to add to their stash. Scott has a wealth of experience as a professional luthier and his it would seem he also has his own contacts in India that would imagine extend back for many years. If on the other hand someone was after a resonable quantity of EIR, it now seems a no brainer to go direct to India via Allied Lutherie. According to their web site, if your order is large enough to qualify, then Allied will drop ship direct from their mill in India. This means that cost would be much lower than those displayed on their web site, the wood will ship sanded, properly graded and dry and is backed by Allied's 'proven' guarantee of customer satisfaction. This link makes an interesting read and has opened my eyes to some of the realities about the instrument grade Indian Rosewood market. I advice anybody who is considering dealing direct with India to at least take the time to read what Todd Taggart has to say here before they wire their money to anyone. Yes Todd does have an interest in convincing you to buy from Allied Lutherie instead of going direct to India, but I doubt you would find anyone who could stand with hand on heart an state that Todd Taggart does not fully deserved his reputation as an honest bloke who knows his business.
http://www.alliedlutherie.com/indian2.htm
Cheers
Kim
Re: Buying wood from India
This post just reinforces the adage "let the buyer beware " and why this forum has preferred vendors.
Like Paul (Ozwood) I do not buy in bulk and I have also bought on Ebay from a vendor in Melbourne.
The one I used trades under the name of "Rosewood and Bits of Everything". I have bought two sets of
E I R and two sets of Macassar mahogany. I was very happy with the quality of the sets supplied and
the service.
Like Paul (Ozwood) I do not buy in bulk and I have also bought on Ebay from a vendor in Melbourne.
The one I used trades under the name of "Rosewood and Bits of Everything". I have bought two sets of
E I R and two sets of Macassar mahogany. I was very happy with the quality of the sets supplied and
the service.
Bruce Mc.
Re: Buying wood from India
Managing. Apparantly.What was the Bank Manager doing all this time?
Craig
I'm not the sharpest tool in my shed
I'm not the sharpest tool in my shed
-
ashparekh
Re: Buying wood from India
Well, I think there is enough debate on Indian rosewood. The fact is simple if somebody wants to buy wood directly from India it is his choice and if want to buy from preferred vendor or any other company it is also their own choice. Everybody does their work on their own risks and I am sure there is nobody to lose money. It is like if you pay then you must get the quality simple fundamental rule.
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