Calibrating Hygrometers (Pics)

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Hesh1956
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Calibrating Hygrometers (Pics)

Post by Hesh1956 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:55 am

As promised... :D I have been hell bent on finding out the real scoop on what the RH is in my shop.

I have a number of hygrometers and I understand that digitals usually suck in terms of accuracy. My Abbeon is my gold standard and I have been sending it to Abbeon in California for calibration. But that takes about 2 weeks and costs $35ish so I wanted to learn to calibrate my hygrometers myself.

I purchased 4 lab thermometers in C scale from Physics.com. These things were inexpensive (about $4 ea.) and IMHO they suck.... Why do they suck? Because I can't see the stinkin mercury without a stinkin magnifying glass... :( :D

Anyway I am digressing....

Once I had the 4 thermometers in house I stuck them all in 1/2" of what was left of my morning tea and picked the two that read exactly the same. The others were only off by 1/2 a degree but I thought it would be best to have a matched pair of thermometers.

Next the thermometers were taped to a bench and a 2" X 2" piece of linen was completely wet and wrapped around the bulb on the down wind thermometer. This is a wet/dry bulb test that I am setting up here.

I decided to use my vac to draw air from the shop over the bulbs of both thermometers. This takes about 2 minutes for the readings to stabilize and it worked quite nicely.

I repeated this experiment 3 times a couple of hours apart.

The results were compared to this chart: http://www.novalynx.com/reference-rh-table.html and that is how my results were obtained.

My dry bulb read 26.5C and my wet bulb read 19.5C for a difference of 7.

My read of the chart is that the RH at the times of the tests (all three had the same results) was 50-51%

A glance at my hygrometers told me that my Abbeon is only off in this temp/RH range by perhaps 1-2% which is excellent. Unfortunately though I don't get to experience taking the thing apart and calibrating it.

The Caliber III's were 9% low and I wrote that on the back of them with the date. The Stew-Mac hygrometer was 10% low and that was noted too.

My understanding is that when calibrating RH the temp and RH "range" makes a difference. For example the results that I see in the 50% range could be correct but in say the 75% range my dry/wet bulb test may show different discrepancies with the hygrometers.

Since I am not a scientist or an engineer I would appreciate it if the willing here who read this would check my results and method and let us all know if this looks like a valid test and probable results?

Here is the set-up:

Image

Here is the wet and dry bulb. Note that the vac is sucking so the dry bulb is up wind of the wet bulb:

Image

And here is what the various hygrometers read at the time of the test(s):

Image

Conclusions: Again I am not a scientist so it's very possible that I am fooling myself so please let me know?

Digital hygrometers suck! Being off 9-10% in the range that we are looking for is too far off. But I expected this.

The Abbeon is pretty accurate and in this case did not need calibration.

Based on the results my shop is too humid and needs to come down at least several %.

Let me know if you think that I did this test correctly and what I may need to do differently?

Many thanks! :)

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Post by woodrat » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:03 am

G'day Hesh, Thanks for doing this for us. I have 2 identical Stew Mac digital hygrometers like the blue and white one in your pic except it only displays temp in either C or F but not together ie only two lines not three...anyway I am a bit worried now that you have shown them to be doubtful and I intend to see if mine are accurate. They read within 1% of each other but that does not mean that they are accurate. :?
I am very conscious of R/H and I havent had a problem yet in any of the instruments I've made but I would rather KNOW that my hygrometers are accurate than just HOPE they are. :?
Anyway thanks again.... also appreciated the link to the R/H chart.

John
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Post by kiwigeo » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:25 am

The best hygrometer is a freshly braced up paper thin spruce top calibrated to my potato chip humidity scale.

Flat = 0% humidity
Looking like a Smiths potato chip = 50%
Bent double on itself = 100% humidity

Easy...!!!!!

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Post by Nick » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:02 pm

kiwigeo wrote:The best hygrometer is a freshly braced up paper thin spruce top calibrated to my potato chip humidity scale.

Flat = 0% humidity
Looking like a Smiths potato chip = 50%
Bent double on itself = 100% humidity

Easy...!!!!!
The bent double is easy to cure, just wring it out over a sink somewhere, that should bring it down into the 15-20% range almost immediately :wink: If it's in the 50% "Smiths" range then a nice onion or Garlic dip...It won't cure the curl but will make the spruce taste better. :idea:

Thanks Hesh, I have a StewMac jobbie as well, never have gotten along with it tho. Might be time for an investment on the 'tried and true' old fashioned model.
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Post by Rod True » Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:20 pm

Looks like that would work out great Hesh. I'll have to do that for my hygro's as I'm now rather interested to see just how far out they are. I don't ever look at my digital as I know it's so far out that it offers little assurance to me.


edit:
Oh, you're not anal retentive in any way are you


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Post by Bob Connor » Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:43 pm

Good work Hesh.

Nice to see you've still got that silicon encrusted non-slip rubber mat. :D
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Post by Lillian » Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:17 pm

Somewhere in the archives here you'll find a photo of my shop wall and the three I have. One little black one like yours, one that was from a cigar place and a clock from Ikea that shows the temp as well. I ended up doing the same thing you did because of the differences between them. The two hair hygrometers are sort of close to each other, about 5 points different, but the digital is 17 points lower. After running my experiment, I found that the two hair hygrometers were close, the actual RH was in between the two readings, but the digital wasn't worth the money spent on it. And there is no way to adjust it.

New technology doesn't always make it better.

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Post by Hesh1956 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:46 pm

Lillian wrote:
New technology doesn't always make it better.
Agreed! :)

I always knew that my digitals could be off but this test really surprised me as to how very off these things can be.... At this point the only thing that my digitals are good for is showing change.

What I am most concerned about is the chart I used indicates at the top of it that it's accurate for a specific barometric pressure, 74.27 cm Hg. So this means that in order to do this test correctly one must also know their barometric pressure. Where is that emoticon with the little red guy beating his head against the wall.... :D

So I checked the weather channel on-line and that told me that at the moment the barometric pressure is 30.0.... So I am assuming that the 30.0 is in inches and not cm so I converted the 30 to cm and have 76.2 cm Hg. I am wondering how much of a difference in the results the barometric pressure can cause. I am also clueless as to how to take my own barometric pressure in my shop.

Talk about scope creep - this seemingly simple science project just keeps getting bigger and bigger....

My question is do you guys think that I really need to factor in the barometric pressure and redo the experiment? If so how does one determine their barometric pressure, of their shop that is?

You are very welcome John. Looks like the Stew-Mac units are not all that accurate... Several years ago this one that you see in the pics was used in the salt test when I used that method to determine calibration. At that time I noted that my Stew-Mac was 2% low. Now it's 10% low. So either it is drifting further out with time or the salt test was not valid or the salt test broke this unit. BTW the Caliber III digitals (the black ones) say in the instructions that the salt test may harm the units and invalidate the warranty.

Maybe manufacturing and selling digital hygrometers is the business to be in. You can have them say anything that you want and they still sell... :lol:

Martin potato chips would not last long in my shop. In fact I can't have junk food in the house or I will sleep walk and eat what ever I find in the kitchen...

Nick bro something else to consider is to just do a wet/dry bulb test and note what your Stew-Mac unit says in different RH readings. If it responds consistently you can make a legend as to what it says and what it really means. That is what I was hoping to do with my digitals but at this point I think that I have to repeat the wet/dry bulb test in other RH readings, perhaps 10% in either direction to be able to get a sense of how the digital responds. Just a thought and it may make these digitals useful.

Rod - yeah! :lol:

Bob so you like my silicon encrusted mat? Reminds me of Frank Zappa and his zircon encrusted tweezers... :D

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Rod True
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Post by Rod True » Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:28 am

Hesh, I don't think you need to worry about the BP in your shop and just trust the local weather channel for that. Honestly I don't think there is anything that you can do about the BP anyway and although it would really nice to be able to be 100% accurate in your measurement, that's just not going to happen.

My guess is that you are already more annal about humidity then most of our peers and that right there gets you an A+.

I think you should call it good and get on to some building :wink:
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Post by Joe Sustaire » Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:57 am

I guess I'm at the opposite end of the anal retentive scale, not necessarily a good thing! When the doors in my shop start sticking, the roof is leaking and there are puddles in my gravel floored shop, I know it's not time to brace any plates or close any boxes. :lol:

And that pretty much describes how it's been here the last month! So jig building is what's been on the bench.

Joe
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Post by Hesh1956 » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:23 am

Thanks for the A+ Rod my friend! :)

Joe regardless of Oklahoma's sometimes foul weather at least you guys have two college football teams in the top 20 right now! :D Let's try to remember what's really important in life.... :D

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Post by Clancy » Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:52 am

Hesh mate, you are spot on.
At this point the only thing that my digitals are good for is showing change.
It's time I owned up.
I'm an automation & controls engineer and for the last 5 years I've been back in Building Management Systems (where I began all those years ago).
Humidity readings are a constant source of angst, especially when dealing with clients.
The digtals aren't worth anything when it comes to RH. We pay upwards of $1500 for a sensor (vaisala or testo) for calibrating our systems, & even then they will only match exactly at the moment of calibration.
They younger techs laugh when I get out my 'Whirling Psychrometer' (also called a Sling). Essentially the 2 mercury thermometers, 1 with wet sock & resovoir, all attached to a block of wood and a swivelling handle. Swing it around & compare to included chart. As accurate as you can get.
I never say humidity IS a value, I say it is AROUND a value.
If your trying to control humidity, you can make it more humid or less humid, but not an exact value.
For clients we control RH within a given & agreed range.
The smallest this range gets is 5% (+/- 2.5%, document archives & laser clocks for sattelite communications). To do this we spend big bucks and the rooms are enclosed environments, not subject to external weather effects like our sheds and workshops.

Here's my Sling (was missing resovoir when I bought it at a market for $5 - the guy didn't know what it was)

Image

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Post by Allen » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:21 am

I just did a search for one of those Craig, and seems like $5 was the buy of the century. Who would have thought that something so simple could cost so much. :shock:
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Clancy
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Post by Clancy » Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:04 am

Don't I know it Allen.
The guy said he found it down the back of his grandfathers shed & didn't know what it was. I felt bad after talking him down from $8.
Now if only I can find a little old lady with a complete set of Titan Chisels. "They were my husbands, but he never used them....." :wink:

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Post by Hesh1956 » Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:42 am

Thanks Craig - much appreciated my friend!

I have been looking for a sling psychrometer too and so far the only one I can find is a bit pricey. I may make one but first I have to get some different mercury thermometers because the junky ones that purchased look like they would fall apart....

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Post by Dennis Leahy » Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:48 am

I just got one:

Image

$12 on Ebay.

This particular psychromometer is in °F, so I had to find a chart or online calculator.

When I tried it, my digital said 41%RH. I got readings of 73°F dry bulb and 60°F wet bulb, which by the chart and calculator is around 46% or 47%RH. That's an interesting difference from the digital, because if ideal is 45% to 50%RH, then at 41% I might have been thinking about getting ready to add some water to the air, but at (the assumed true reading of about) 46%, I would consider if perfect.

I think I'm still going to make one of the human hair hygrometers, and now I'll use the sling psychrometer to calibrate it. It will be another reference point - a quicker visual reference point than getting the sling out.

Thanks, Hesh, you lit the fire under me to get it done.

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Post by woodrat » Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:44 pm

I have just conducted a test to see how accurate or otherwise my digi hygrometers are and I basically found the same as Hesh, that my Stew Mac blue and white hygrometer is reading about 10-12% LOW :(
I think that I need some real equipment to tell the correct R/H and to be able to calibrate and corroborate what each of them is saying.
I have shifted my "range"now to high 30%- low 40% to ake into account the error.
I really like the look of Hesh's brass hygrometer but the price is a bit offputting... I think that I will have a go at Craig's human hair one as corroborating instrument.
I have been using the Blue and white digital ones now for three years and I have been trying to build at or around 45% so with the error that is nearing 60% R/H. In his book written in the mid seventies Jim Williams said regarding humidity that you should not do any cross grain gluing like bracing etc over 60% R/H. I though that was a bit high but it seems that it is a quite acceptable upper limit as I have basically been doing that and they have not showed even the slightest hint of movement or cracking. :) I suppose it means that the guitar built between 40% and 60 % R/H has the ability to handle quite large swings in R/H.
I suppose that I'll be like everyone else now and looking about for a nice sling psychrometer...they look like fun. :D
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Post by Dennis Leahy » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:44 pm

woodrat wrote:...I suppose that I'll be like everyone else now and looking about for a nice sling psychrometer...they look like fun. :D
If I had not found one cheap, I would probably have bought 2 thermometers, and the wick material tied at the end of the wet bulb looks like the wick for gas camping lanterns.

Along the lines of what Martin said about potato chips, Gary Demos made up a strip of Spruce, composed of 2 thin layers, like 2mm x 19mm x 300mm, glued face-to-face. In one layer the 300mm is long grain, and one layer the 300mm is cross grain (like a guitar back center patch/strip.) He tried to carefully wait until his shop was 50%RH on the day it was glued up. Then, he mounted one end of it somewhere in his shop, leaving the length unsupported (cantilevered.) One quick glance at that and he has a pretty good idea if it is OK to do bracing work that day or not.

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Post by Allen » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:38 pm

I've been doing some searching and this came up as an economical version of a wet / dry bulb set up.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/PSYCHROMETER-WOO ... 1362wt_941
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