ANZLF Adjustable Neck Joint Group Discussion

Got a new way of doing something? Or maybe an old method that needs some clarification.

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Dominic
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Post by Dominic » Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:47 pm

Rick, what a bummer ego can be.

I, and I am sure, every other member of this forum, feel for you mate. Must be tough getting heard with all the egotists out there.
Just persevere mate, and eventually, everyone will come to see you for what you truly are.
You can bomb the world to pieces,
but you can't bomb the world to peace!

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Kim
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Post by Kim » Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:02 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: 8)

Your such a SNAG Dominic. :lol:

Cheers

Kim

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Post by BMS » Fri May 30, 2008 7:27 pm

Image

This is an original document from a German compagny with the bolted mechanism for sale. Almoust all makers used the exact same system from 1850's to 1940's.
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Post by kiwigeo » Fri May 30, 2008 10:28 pm

Rick Turner wrote:
Well, I know that the big problem is that luthiers already have an investment, both financial and emotionally in doing things their way and not wanting to copy another luthier...unless those copied luthiers are dead.
I prefer the egos of dead luthiers :shock:

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Post by BMS » Fri May 30, 2008 11:38 pm

I know a maker who as on his site a Viennese bolted neck system "under licence" :D
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Kim
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Post by Kim » Sat May 31, 2008 12:31 am

Benoit,

Thanks for posting the catalogue of the neck adjusting hardware, it's very interesting. Just goes to show, nothing new under this old sun.

Cheers

Kim

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Post by BMS » Sat May 31, 2008 12:43 am

I have something for you too:

This guy is saling a Mike doolin copy on ebay.de BUT with a glued neck:

http://cgi.ebay.de/WESTERNGITARRE-GRACE ... dZViewItem

When I sended him an email to ask him about, he rudely send me to hell and claimed it was a Gerald Gilet's design made by Grace guitars in Vietnam. He clain Doolin is an unknown copycat and nothing more (I will not put all the swearwords he used neather :roll: ).. I tryed to reatch mr Gilet but no news yet...
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Post by kiwigeo » Sat May 31, 2008 2:31 pm

Sounds like the seller is "Le Dickhead".

Nice website by the way Benoit. The harp guitar looks great.

Cheers Martin

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Post by graham mcdonald » Sat May 31, 2008 3:03 pm

I would very much doubt if it is Gerard's design. I have just spoken to one of his staff who didn't think Gerard would ever design a double cutaway. Everything about the guitar in Germany screams Doolin, except for the slotted headstock. I have sent a link to Mike, if he doesn't already know about it. It is worthwhile getting Google to translate the page !

A Google search on Grace guitars turned up this link http://gracemic.trustpass.alibaba.com/p ... owimg.html

which is the Taiwanese parent company and shows the range that Gerard has been involved with.

Gerard is away at the moment on a wood hunting expedition up north.

Perhaps more info will come to light soon

cheers

graham
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Post by BMS » Sat May 31, 2008 6:09 pm

Thanks for the help.
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Allen
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Post by Allen » Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:08 am

I wasn't happy with the fret board support and hole that I had to cut in the top of my size 5 terz guitar to accommodate the support block, so I'm going to try something different on the next guitar.

The next build is going to use a similar system, except that I'm going to try and use Rick Turner's method of supporting the fret board with CF rods instead of the fret board extension block.

I'm also going to use the 2 set screws to adjust yaw. My thinking is that while it's not that hard to set the yaw of the neck without the screws, it certainly doesn't hurt to have the ability to easily adjust them.

I'm going to inlet the CF rods into the fret board by 1/8" so there will be 1/4" exposed below. Then on the top I'll add a patch of spruce to the underside of the top below the fret board so I can rout slots into the top for the CF rods, but not cut all the way through so as to have a top that has more structural integrity. I could completely elevate the fret board as Rick does, but I still prefer a more traditional look to my guitars.
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Dennis Leahy
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Post by Dennis Leahy » Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:40 am

OK, I'm getting close to jumping from CAD to reality on a different adjustable neck joint.

Somewhere in this thread, someone suggested the jam nut method to create a rotatable yet otherwise immobile screw. I went off on that. After discovering that I never really did follow Grant's instructions correctly for my first adjustable neck :oops: , well I guess I'm sailing into uncharted waters again.

I have a complication that just about no one else will face - I have decided to build using a suspended bracing system, with structural braces running from the neck block to the tail block, basically keeping the guitar top from imploding. (also using a "tunnel" bridge, like a pinless bridge, with strings continuing back to a tailpiece.) So, instead of a clean neck block, I have multiple obstructions making the adjustable neck hardware difficult to access, and cannot even use an Allen wrench the "correct" way (using the long arm for the best mechanical advantage.) I am a perfect candidate for exterior hardware!!! If I wasn't such a stubborn son of a bitch.

I mocked up a jam nut screw, and it has been on my desk for a couple of months.
Image
Mock-up (upside down) [2" x 1/4-20 socket cap screw, nylon or mylar washer on both sides of the wood, and 2 nuts jammed together] The barrel nuts ("cross dowels") only come in 1/4-20, AFAIK, so the bolt and nuts have to be 1/4-20.

I periodically pick it up and torture it, exerting sideways pressure on the screw, and spinning it more than a real guitar would ever need to endure. It turns easily, even using an Allen wrench the wrong way. So I decided to try this solution.

Here are screen captures of the CAD drawings. (edit: I cropped the pictures to 800 pixels wide.)

Oh, the guitar turned into a 13-fret to the body join. That's another unrelated story. But you'll see a line sticking up from the 12th fret indicating 5/64".

Three views: "normal" setup with a 5/64" string action, neck rotated back, and neck rotated forward.

Image
The "normal" setup, 5/64" action at the 12th fret.



Image
Neck rotated back by 1.5°, and as you can see there should never be a need to rotate that far. There is actually room to rotate 2 full degrees, if this system was ever used on a guitar that had a top that distorted by lifting.



Image
Neck rotated forward by 1.5° "In the unlikely event of a water landing..."

OK, for most folks, please disregard the horizontal lines indicating the suspended braces running from the neck block towards the back.

The dotted line under the fingerboard is CF. I intend to inlay a pair of 1/8" x 3/8" CF rods in the neck. (I would like to also inlay them by 1/8" into the underside of the fingerboard, like Rick, but I'm not confident that I can do it with the tools that I have - especially if the fingerboard is bound - so I'm going to make do with the 3/8" sticking down from the fingerboard extension.) I have rotated the soundboard at the bridge to change the angle at the neck, plus I will taper the ends of the rods as shown. I'll also be able to add some wood to hide the CF, and add mass.

This design uses a pair of upper setscrews to define the main pivot fulcrum, to adjust yaw if necessary, and to adjust intonation distance if necessary.

Note the use of the upside-down truss rod, accessed above the soundboard. My reasoning for that is: 1.) I don't want the TR erupting through the headstock. Please see reference to stubborn son of a bitch above. 2.) With the TR access down below the soundboard, there is a limitation to how far you can rotate the neck back, before you cannot access the TR nut. 3.) I want the pivot point as close to the fingerboard as possible, and want the upper barrel bolt and the setscrews fulcrums as close to the same point as possible. A normal TR access at the soundhole wants the same position as my upper bolt. 4.) I want to piss off as many repair guys as possible, and figure that a TR that acts the opposite of what they expect should do it nicely.

Note the stepped neck tenon. The upper part of the neck tenon needs to support the downward pressure of the truss rod. The lower part of the tenon needs to clear the two nuts jammed together. I made my neck tenon just 3/4" wide, so I can carve a "stilleto" neck heel. That narrow 3/4" mortise opening made me figure out a way to jam the nuts properly, and replace the hardware if ever necessary. I am using 7/16" nuts, but the height is important: I need a high/thick nut so that I can grab it with the box end of a 7/16" box wrench, and still be able to get a (long) 7/16" socket over the second nut to jam them together. Thick nuts are available 1/4" and 17/64" thick, which do work.

And here are a couple of photos of the neck blocks that I just made:

Image
Face of the neck block (additional holes for dowel rods, for suspended bracing)



Image
Rear of the neck block

Hopefully pretty soon, I will have one built, and can report back on this system.

Dennis
Last edited by Dennis Leahy on Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Allen » Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:53 am

You've been busy, and looks like a really ambitious undertaking Denis. I'm looking forward to progress pictures, especially of this bracing system.
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Post by Tom Morici » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:12 pm

Dennis,

Nice looking design, and of course I always like looking at drawings.
Glad to see your progress with real parts.

I guess we are like minded on not wanting the truss rod adjustment
at the peghead. Sure it is the simple solution, but it looks like we both
enjoy the challege of "If there's a will there is a way"

I still see that bottom bolt as a bind point with any angle change.
Perhaps it is not enough to matter, lookind forward to hearing
your results. (so I can stop worrying about it. :lol: )

Keep up the good work!

Tom

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Post by Dennis Leahy » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:02 am

Allen wrote:...I'm looking forward to progress pictures, especially of this bracing system.
Hi Allen,

I'm inspired by your implementation of the external adjuster for adjustable necks, and I want to get a working unit (guitar!) done so it can see some real-world testing. The bracing system is another story. If interested, you can follow along with the box being built on the Luthierforum (Dennis Leahy's Build, "Basia" parlor guitar). The latest attempt uses straight dowel rods from neck block to tail block, hopefully simpler and easier to create than the triangulated suspended bracing I did on my first guitar, "Angelina", so that I could experiment with a new "sonic" soundboard bracing scheme: Angelina guts
Tom Morici wrote:...I still see that bottom bolt as a bind point with any angle change.
Perhaps it is not enough to matter, lookind forward to hearing
your results. (so I can stop worrying about it. :lol: )

Tom
Hi Tom,

The barrel nut at the bottom of the heel (lower bolt) does indeed raise just slightly less than 1/64" in the CAD model, when the neck is tilted back (lowering action) by 1.5°, if holding the pivot point at the tip of the oval-headed setscrew. So, good observation! However, I don't think the neck will ever need to be adjusted by more than 0.5°, which means the barrel nut would only "attempt" to lift by something like 0.003", which would easily be handled by "slop" in the system. Still, leaving no stone unturned, the other way to handle it is by drilling the top bolt hole out to 9/32" (1/32" oversize for the 1/4" bolt), providing 1/64" of room for the upper bolt and barrel nut to rise or fall, rather than add the slight binding force to the lower bolt/nut assembly. The upper bolt would then be fitted with a nylon washer as well.

So, even though I may be allowing for a problem that does not really manifest as a problem, I did drill the upper bolt hole oversize, and I'm using a nylon washer there. The oval tip of the setscrews should glide freely on the metal disks I'll inlay into the neck heel (not shown in the CAD drawings above.)

And, though I did not bother to move the upper bolt assembly up and down by 1/64" in the CAD drawings showing the 1.5° back tilt and forward tilt, I did bother to move the rest of the neck up and down, to make sure there will still be enough clearance beneath the heel cap and binding, and enough clearance at the underside of the fingerboard/trussrod/CF and the soundboard.

Theoretically, it should work, which I guess is better than a bumblebee's flight engineering. :lol:

Take care,

Dennis
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Post by Craig » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:55 pm

Dennis Leahy wrote:
Somewhere in this thread, someone suggested the jam nut method to create a rotatable yet otherwise immobile screw. I went off on that.

Dennis
After I came up with the locking nuts/captured screw system (below ) way back in March :lol: I had the same concerns as Tom mentions

Image


I screwed the 6mm. stainless screw into a 6 mm. T-nut . It felt like any other thread , in that, it had a normal amount of play . I set about measuring this play and found it to be 1.5 degrees comfortably. Heaps !

Screw the adjusting screw itself,(waxed) through the heel and into the headblock, to epoxy the new T-Nut in place . This will have them lined up accuratley. Before doing this though ,place a small tempory spacer piece of wood at the bottom of the heel pocket to have the heel tenon sit against at about where it's going to live.


Dennis , I tryed some nylon /teflon type washers earlier and felt them to be maybe a weak link . I swapped to brass. In any case ,if there were any wearing issues , the slack can always be taken out by the easily adjustable locking Hex. nuts.

If the pivot is at the same point as the top bolt ,a washer won't be needed there Dennis. The turnable barrel nut , and it's thread 'play ' will easily handle the microscopic amount of angle change
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Post by Allen » Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:50 am

My design was going to use the 2 lock nuts, but after reading a few posts here and on the MMIF I decided to leave the nuts out and just use the cap screw. It turns very easily, and with the hardware that I chose there is about 1" of thread engaged when the neck is in its appropriate position. Simple and just one less thing to engineer.
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Post by BMS » Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:27 am

" I have decided to build using a suspended bracing system, with structural braces running from the neck block to the tail block, basically keeping the guitar top from imploding. "
Dear Dennis:
Can you explain? I personaly use a 10mm Graphite rod from tail to neck block. About in the middle of the body's depth... I can adjust the tension on the rod with an allen key. What are you using?
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Post by Craig » Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:37 am

Allen wrote:My design was going to use the 2 lock nuts, but after reading a few posts here and on the MMIF I decided to leave the nuts out and just use the cap screw. It turns very easily, and with the hardware that I chose there is about 1" of thread engaged when the neck is in its appropriate position. Simple and just one less thing to engineer.
Allen , if I'm reading this correctly, you are relying on the pull of the strings to keep the heel/neck at your desired angle ?


Dennis and Benoit, Could you start a new thread on "suspended bracing" so that this thread remains on topic
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Post by Allen » Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:34 pm

That's correct Craig. The strings are going to be pulling the neck up, so I didn't see any need to force it in a direction that it is hell bent on going anyway.

What it did for me, is to take out of the equation the potential binding of the adjusting screw due to too tight jam nuts, or washers not functioning as planned.

The neck was designed to use the jam nuts (there's room for them) so if it turns out to be a dud of a plan, they can always be installed. Personally, I don't envision them being needed, but hey, I've been wrong before. :shock:
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Post by Dennis Leahy » Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:48 pm

Craig wrote:... After I came up with the locking nuts/captured screw system (below ) way back in March...
Craig, sorry I did not credit you. As far as you know, are you the first to come up with a jam nut for an adjustable neck on a guitar? Seems like every time I think I "invented" something, it usually works out that I just didn't look back far enough or wide enough into history. Goddamn people going back in time machines and inventing MY ideas! :lol: Wondered if that ever happened to you too.
Craig wrote: Dennis , I tryed some nylon /teflon type washers earlier and felt them to be maybe a weak link . I swapped to brass. In any case ,if there were any wearing issues , the slack can always be taken out by the easily adjustable locking Hex. nuts.

If the pivot is at the same point as the top bolt ,a washer won't be needed there Dennis. The turnable barrel nut , and it's thread 'play ' will easily handle the microscopic amount of angle change
There was a hardware store going out of business that had Mylar washers that seem pretty damn tough, so I got a few of those plus ordered a bunch of nylon washers. I really have tortured the mock-up, and they seem to work fine.

My intent is to have some washer in there that both allows easy "slippage" plus protects the neck block a bit from being crushed by metal. I also figured they would be silent even if the neck block shrinks and a metal washer might buzz.

I'm curious why you think they are a weak link.
Allen wrote:My design was going to use the 2 lock nuts, but after reading a few posts here and on the MMIF I decided to leave the nuts out...
Hi Allen,

What did you read that convinced you not to use them?
BMS wrote:" I have decided to build using a suspended bracing system, with structural braces running from the neck block to the tail block, basically keeping the guitar top from imploding. "
Dear Dennis:
Can you explain? I personaly use a 10mm Graphite rod from tail to neck block. About in the middle of the body's depth... I can adjust the tension on the rod with an allen key. What are you using?
Best regards
Benoit

Benoit,

I was going to say let's make that a different thread, but Craig beat me to it. I only mentioned suspended bracing in this thread, because my neck blocks look like Swiss cheese, and wanted to explain NOT to look at the suspended bracing bits.

====================================

Hey on another note, I am looking for some small steel disks to inlay into the back of the heel (this would be the metal meeting up with the steel setscrews.) I figure something the size of a small disc magnet would be perfest (say, 1/2" dia x 1/8" thick.) I can't find anything in plain steel near that size. I'd rather not use brass, as I believe it will wear. I suppose I could make them by hacksawing some steel rod, but I would buy them if I could find them. Magnets are plenty hard, but brittle. I suppose they would work though. Does anyone have a better idea?

Dennis
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Post by Craig » Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:22 pm

G'day Dennis,

The washers I used ( I had two types ) started to flatten out over time . Your ones may not do this..

The other reason I went off them was their ability to dampen vibrations . They are the link between the neck and body and if you are to believe in the neck's vibrations coupling with the body , then the washers would surely inhibit this from happening.

I've never had bolts come loose because of headblock shrinkage ( touch wood :lol: )

I changed my mind about having slices of 3/8 brass rod for the screws to bear against also . My first thought was to cut back to 5/16 "rod for a starter ( less weight and still plenty big enough ) The brass might be inclined to wear a spot over time , steel may rust , so I've ended up with slices of 5/16 stainless rod for the stainless screws to bear against.

The flush faces of these end up to be on a slight angle to the screws bearing against them ( because of the heel angle ) I see this as a very good thing . It stops any tendancy of a neck wanting to rise, and secondly it forces the fingerboard , or fingerboard tenon against the body so that any neck vibrations still couple with the body ( that's if you are to believe in this happening in the first place :lol: ) I kinda think it does ! :lol:

Yes Dennis , as far as I know ,and as simple as it is ,I've not seen anyone use the locking hex nuts for an adjustable neck previously.


Allen , if it ain't broke , don't fix it I suppose. I have one thought though regarding the pull of the strings on the neck . If you have the neck raised at the body join, as are many who use adjustable necks , there is a point where the string tension becomes neutral at the end of the heel. In other words the tension of the strings is handled in direct line of the neck. I have played around with this angle and found it to be about when the neck has been raised around 5 to 6 mm. above the body at the join. I believe Rick Turner's guitars to work on this principle.

What I'm trying to say ,is be aware of this when calculating how high you are placing the neck above the body at the body join , particularly if you are relying on that string pull to keep the neck at your desired angle.

Hoping you can follow where I'm coming from :lol:
Last edited by Craig on Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Allen » Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:31 pm

Denis, your asking a lot from a fellow that's killed more brain cells than he is currently in possession of. :lol:

As I recall it was some comments about everything "New" has been around for a long time, and there was or is a adjustable neck system that has been used in Europe for a very long time that is basically what I ended up using. I've read countless articles about adjustable necks, and I've really no idea where I could point you to the discussion. The one that comes to mind only used the lower adjusting screw, but as I said, while it works, I didn't care for the way the neck would flop down without string tension to hold it in place.

I just felt that any potential owner would only have a negative thought when this happened the first time they went to change strings. That's why I added the upper bolt and just barely snugged up the slack
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Post by Allen » Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:36 pm

Craig wrote: Allen , if it ain't broke , don't fix it I suppose. I have one thought though regarding the pull of the strings on the neck . If you have the neck raised at the body join, as are many who use adjustable necks , there is a point where the string tension becomes neutral at the end of the heel. In other words the tension of the strings is handled in direct line of the neck. I have played around with this angle and found it to be about when the neck has been raised around 5 to 6 mm. above the body at the join. I believe Rick Turner's guitars to work on this principal.

What I'm trying to say ,is be aware of this when calculating how high you are placing the neck above the body at the body join , particularly if you are relying on that string pull to keep the neck at your desired angle.

Hoping you can follow where I'm coming from :lol:
Are you talking about using a raised fret board...ie the top diving down in front of the sound hole by lets say 10 mm so the fret board is still where it's meant to be, but now there is clearance under it?
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Post by Tom Morici » Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm

Dennis,

After reading your detailed response to my concern of the bottom adjusting bolt. I feel much better :D You sure did your homework.
Sounds, like it will work fine. Keep us updated.

Great job on refining my simple wedge body drawing.
To allow fretboard end, truss rod adjusting. :lol:

Tom

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