How I prepare, spray and buff a guitar

Got a new way of doing something? Or maybe an old method that needs some clarification.

Moderators: kiwigeo, Jeremy D

User avatar
Allen
Blackwood
Posts: 5252
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:39 pm
Location: Cairns, Australia
Contact:

How I prepare, spray and buff a guitar

Post by Allen » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:51 pm

I get asked a lot how I do the finish on my guitars, so I'll put together a little how I do if for those that are interested.

You have to start off with your surfaces as smooth as possible. I sand out with P80, then progress through P120 and P180. Depending on the wood species I will sometime go to P240. I then pore fill with WEST Systems epoxy. Let sit for 24 hours and then sand back with P180, then P240.

Most woods will only require this done once, but I've had to do it twice on Australian Cedar to fill very deep pores. I will then wipe on a coat of epoxy thinned 50/50 with metho. just to give all the wood a uniform wetting. Let dry for at least 24 hours. I usually do this and then go on to other parts of the build. The epoxy protects the body by firming everything up and it doesn't hurt to leave it.

When it comes time to spray, I will just give the surface a "tickle" with a fine soft sanding pad or P320.

I use Mirotone catalyzed lacquer and thin it about 60/40. I don't want to spray on a heavy finish, and thin coats will give you really good results without a heavy build. Spray about 5 coats, letting the surface flash of at least 5 minutes between coats. 10-15 are better if you can. In high humidity and cool weather the surface might take on a blush, looking sort of milky. Don't panic, this is just moisture getting trapped in the finish. By respraying in more favorable conditions the milkiness will disappear.

Now let dry in a well ventilated space for at least 1 week. You can tell if it's dry by smelling the surface. If you can still smell solvent leave it to dry further. You will never get a great finish by rushing the refinish schedule.

Here's probably the most critical part. You can only level out a paint finish with relatively coarse sand paper. For lacquer that starts off at P320 or P400 if the surface is exceptionally good. So start with P320 dry. I like to use a foam/rubber block that you can get from the automotive supply store. Whatever you do, don't use a hard wood block or similar. If you pick up a small bit of grit under a block like this, it will make a deep scratch that is really difficult to get out.

You need to use dry paper because you are going to be inspecting the surface as you sand, looking for the shinny spots to disappear. You will have to make a judgment call here on whether you can continue to sand so that all the shiny spots are gone, or perhaps some deep ones will need to be drop filled.Maybe the lows are really tiny and will be taken care of in the next spraying. Again, don't panic if you can't get the surface perfect in this step.

You don't want to sand through to bare wood here. Stay away from edges, as it's really easy to take too much off of them. They some how manage to get just the right amount done to them, by not trying to touch them.

Now you can sand with P400 and perhaps P600 if it looks like you aren't going to cut through. Then spray another 3-5 coats just like the first time, and let sit for at least 2 weeks. Most times I get away with only 2 sessions in the spray booth, so I'm trying to get this finish pretty good, so I won't have much to do after it comes off the gun.

You're going to be leveling the surface again, but hopefully you've done a terrific job to this point, so it won't take much work. This time I start with P800 wet and level out the finish. I wipe the surface back regularly with a dry cloth and inspect in a good light. I stop sanding as soon as I get a nice even surface.

If everything looks good, you can proceed on to the next steps. If there are still some imperfections, you can spray a few more coats and then repeat the previous sanding step and then move on from there.

Then I proceed on with P1000, P1200 and P1500. These grits do not level. They only refine the scratch pattern left by the previous grit. You could start buffing after the P800, but it would take ages to get a glossy finish. It doesn't take much sanding with each grit to get to a surface that will buff up easily.

I use a automotive foam buffing pad that I've modified by finding a bolt with the right thread and cutting off the head, then mounting it in my drill press.

Image

I have the speed set at 1350 RPM for this size pad. If it was a large pad then I would drop the speed down to 900-1100 RPM. It's the outside edge that does the work, and the damage, so don't take a nap when doing this. :)

A little polish and light to medium pressure. Let the pad and polish do the work. Remember that lacquer is themoplastic, so if you get it to hot, it will melt and get dragged with the buffing pad, then you will be learning how to do a spot finish repair :evil: .

Image

This guitar took just 2 hours from start to finish including the neck. Thats sanding from P800-1500 and buffing, then finishing up with a soft rag.
Allen R. McFarlen
https://www.brguitars.com
Facebook
Cairns, Australia

User avatar
Dave White
Blackwood
Posts: 452
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:10 am
Location: Hughenden Valley, England
Contact:

Post by Dave White » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:02 pm

Allen,

Fabulous stuff yet again - many thanks.
Dave White
[url=http://www.defaoiteguitars.com]De Faoite Stringed Instruments[/url]

User avatar
Allen
Blackwood
Posts: 5252
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:39 pm
Location: Cairns, Australia
Contact:

Post by Allen » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:29 pm

For those of you that don't have access to a automotive spray booth, this type of finish can still be done. In fact I've sprayed several of mine just in the open.

Lot's of times at work, the spay booths are too busy for me to get access for my projects (damn the boss, he just doesn't have my priorities first).

I will just hold the body on a temp. neck stick and spray it standing outside the shop door, then hang it on a hook in the shop and let it flash off. For the neck I will loop a piece of wire through one of the tuner holes and do the same thing.

If you have some method of slowing down bugs and dust, like a screened enclosure, that will be even better. Make sure that the wife is out of the house before you do this in the patio though. :lol:

The beauty of using lacquer that has been thinned out to this extent is that it will flash off very quickly, so you have less of an open time for dust and bugs to land in, and if something does land in it, you can usually just brush it off gently once the finish is a little firmer. Don't try to do it when it's wet, or you'll make a mess of it.

Lacquer melts into itself, so you can let it sit for hours if need be. If it's just too big a piece of dust or bug (they always seem to do the back stroke in fresh paint), then stop the spraying and let dry, then level out and try again. You won't have to wait 2 weeks for this. Depending on the conditions, you might only need a few hours for it to firm up enough to lightly scuff out the imperfections, then spray some more. You would use some P600 wet with a touch of soapy water to do this.

Once you get the number of coats needed, then let dry as previous instructions before proceeding.

It might take you several sessions to get the desired build doing it this way, but you'll get there eventually.
Allen R. McFarlen
https://www.brguitars.com
Facebook
Cairns, Australia

User avatar
Kim
Admin
Posts: 4376
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:32 pm
Location: South of Perth WA

Post by Kim » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:44 pm

Thanks Allen,

These finishing tips of yours are pure gold. A great effort once again and a perfect example of how the value of these forums is only ever realised when people share the knowledge.

We will need to move this thread into the tutorial section when people have had a chance to comment. It will sit just nicely with your Sata spray gun set up tips, it is all first class info and best of all, it is relevant to finishing in our situation.

Cheers and thanks again to a most valued member of the ANZLF.

Kim

User avatar
Craig
Admin
Posts: 1090
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:08 am
Location: N.S.W. in the bush

Post by Craig » Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:50 am

Appreciate all these fine tips Allen . You are indeed a valued member of the ANZLF. Thanks a heap mate.


Cheers Craig

User avatar
Dave Anderson
Blackwood
Posts: 260
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:38 pm
Location: Florida, USA

Post by Dave Anderson » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:42 am

Very good finishing tips Allen! Thanks!
You have a excellent system of finishing.
Dave Anderson
Port Richey,Florida

User avatar
Bob Connor
Admin
Posts: 3132
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:43 pm
Location: Geelong, Australia
Contact:

Post by Bob Connor » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:21 am

Fantastic tutorial Allen.

Since I've got the Festool sander I've been levelling after the second coat of Ubeaut Shellac with 400 grit dry ( on the lowest speed). Then use a 1000, then 2000 micromesh pad on the sander.

It seems to be working very well. At least it's much more consistent than any previous efforts hand sanding.

Any comments or improvements you think I can make to this?

Also could you detail your drop filling technique?

I always seem to run into problems with tiny gaps around purflings/bindings that are probelamatic to fill.

Thanks mate.

Bob

User avatar
Allen
Blackwood
Posts: 5252
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:39 pm
Location: Cairns, Australia
Contact:

Post by Allen » Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:31 am

bob wrote:Fantastic tutorial Allen.

Since I've got the Festool sander I've been levelling after the second coat of Ubeaut Shellac with 400 grit dry ( on the lowest speed). Then use a 1000, then 2000 micromesh pad on the sander.

It seems to be working very well. At least it's much more consistent than any previous efforts hand sanding.

Any comments or improvements you think I can make to this?

Also could you detail your drop filling technique?

I always seem to run into problems with tiny gaps around purflings/bindings that are probelamatic to fill.

Thanks mate.

Bob
I've never used Ubeaut, nor do I use micromesh, so I'm not really able to comment on your particular finish other than the 400 grit is what's doing the leveling and the micromesh is refining the scratch pattern.

One thing to keep in mind is that when you use a random orbital sander, the effective grit you are using usually is finer than what you think. So for instance P320 on a Festool sander would sand similar to P400 by hand.

For those tiny gaps I do my best to get them with the epoxy to start with, but some always seem to get by me. After the first spray session, say a day latter, I will have a good look at the instrument and then use a tooth pick dipped in ready to spray lacquer. It needs to be thin for this to work, or you will just be putting a blob on the surface that won't wick into the void.

Just the tinniest of drops will run down to the tip of the toothpick and I will gently bring the tip of the toothpick down to the void that needs filling. When it gets really close the drop will "jump" to the surface. This works well for filling silicon type fish eye's too. Sometimes it's the only way to fix that type of problem.

Just let it dry. To start with it will look huge, but most of it is solvent, and it will dry down very flat. Have another look in a couple of days and check if they are all filled, or might need another session. If you did this well, they will sand flat when you level the body. If you got a little heavy handed, then use a razor blade to carefully scrape flat, then proceed with sanding the body.

If some still get by you you can even do this after the second spraying and get excellent results.
Allen R. McFarlen
https://www.brguitars.com
Facebook
Cairns, Australia

Hesh1956
Blackwood
Posts: 1420
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:58 am

Post by Hesh1956 » Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:14 pm

Allen great toot my friend.

It's also nice to see this done without a stinkin buffing arbor that can sling your guitar against a wall........

Other then you not smiling I really enjoyed it - thanks M8!!! :cl :cl :cl :cl

User avatar
Allen
Blackwood
Posts: 5252
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:39 pm
Location: Cairns, Australia
Contact:

Post by Allen » Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:01 pm

Hesh1956 wrote:Allen great toot my friend.

It's also nice to see this done without a stinkin buffing arbor that can sling your guitar against a wall........

Other then you not smiling I really enjoyed it - thanks M8!!! :cl :cl :cl :cl
Hey, I was watching what I was doing, not posin' like some of you guys are :lol:

Though with a smile I would look much more alluring when Billy turnss me into a transvestite. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Allen R. McFarlen
https://www.brguitars.com
Facebook
Cairns, Australia

Hesh1956
Blackwood
Posts: 1420
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:58 am

Post by Hesh1956 » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:16 am

Good point - actually anyone who posts a picture of themselves with Billy lurking is a brave person indeed......

User avatar
Dominic
Blackwood
Posts: 1098
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:58 am
Location: Canberra

Post by Dominic » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:46 pm

Hey Allen, thanks for the tute.

Can you, (or anyone else) tell me what the difference is between pre-catalysed lacquer and nitrocellulose lacquer. I recently got some nitro from durabond to try after using hardshellac previously.

The durabond stuff is made for guitars. Anyone used it and do you have any tips?
Cheers
Dom

Paul B

Post by Paul B » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:00 pm

Durobond? Never used it.

I want to though. Actually, I was just thinking about it today, and how I might try it on my next build. If I Remember correctly it was $33 for a liter. Does that sound about right?

Durobond's guitar lacquer was formulated specifically for guitars. They got together with Gerard Gilet of 'Gilet Guitars' here in Sydney (Gilets make pretty good guitars, Sting has one, tho, he ain't known for his guitar chops...). It has a little flexibility built in, in order to cope with constant vibration.

User avatar
Dominic
Blackwood
Posts: 1098
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:58 am
Location: Canberra

Post by Dominic » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:45 pm

Paul, the price sounds about right. I have only used it for a few tests so far so I don't know much. I wondered which luthiers were using it as I figured they would not make it for a few hobby builders.
Dom

User avatar
Allen
Blackwood
Posts: 5252
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:39 pm
Location: Cairns, Australia
Contact:

Post by Allen » Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:11 pm

Nitrocellulose uses corn cellulose as the body (filler if you will) were as acrylic lacquers use synthetic acrylic fillers. Both types of lacquers can check and crack when exposed to extreme temperature fluctuations, but nitrocellulose is much more prone to it, and in a much narrow temperature range. This is why nitrocellulose was dropped by the automotive industry as soon as a viable alternative came along. Automobiles made from metal would expand and contract much more in a very short time than wood ever will.

Lacquers are not flexible. They never were meant to be. This is why they crack (check is the term the paint companies will use). They don't have any give in them, so if the wood moves quicker than than the finish can, it will check. The thicker the finish, the more effect. So it's important to keep the finish as thin as possible, but still provide the protection that you are looking for. This is also why they buff so well to a high shine. The harder a surface is, they higher a shine it will take, and keep.

In my opinion, there is no reason whatsoever to use nitro. The only reason I can see a market for it is because of the nostalgia of using a finish that was used on instruments built 100 years ago. If they had a finish back then that was just as easy to apply, yet had the benefits of these newer finishes, then I'm sure they would have used them. The only time I ever come across nito is in the context of "being specially formulate for guitars". Just some marketing crap to make you think that they've gone out of their way. As far as I'm aware, it's not used for anything else any more.

Catalyzed lacquer has had an additive mixed in, usually an acid, that helps with the curing and hardening of the surface. Drying is by evaporation of the thinners, but curing doesn't take place until the drying is complete. I presume that UBeaut's hard shellac is using a similar approach to speed up the cure and develop a harder finish with their product.

The reason I'm using catalyzed lacquer is that it's relatively inexpensive, easy to use, doesn't have a pot life, easy to buff, and easy to repair. The surface is quite resistant to thing that would commonly come in contact with it. Sweat, beer, deodorant. Nito is sensitive to several things. Shellac as well.

Catalyzed lacquer is not the silver bullet though. A much more durable finish would be a urethane or polyester one. These however are much more expensive. Difficult to apply, have a short pot life. Take very specialized spraying equipment and spray booths. Plus a considerable amount of skill to apply. If you get a run in these finishes, it's almost impossible to get it flattened without having to respray. Difficult to buff and difficult to repair as compared to shellac or lacquer. These finishes are more appropriate for people finishing many more instruments than the average hobbiest or small producer.

I buy Mirotone in 4 liter cans and 4 liters of thinner. One guitar gets 1 liter of sprayable material applied. So 1/2 liter lacquer and 1/2 liter thinner. That's for 2 spray sessions, and usually a little left over. This puts on a thin wet coat, but not much build. I like to still be able to see the grain of the wood telegraphing through the finish on the top after a couple of months after buffing out.

It's been nearly a year since I bought my current stock, so I can't even remember exactly how much it was. Certainly less that $150 though, I think closer to the $100 mark. Following the way I prepare and refinish I will get 8 complete guitars out of that 1 can of lacquer and thinners.
Allen R. McFarlen
https://www.brguitars.com
Facebook
Cairns, Australia

User avatar
Dave White
Blackwood
Posts: 452
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:10 am
Location: Hughenden Valley, England
Contact:

Post by Dave White » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:24 am

Allen,

Fascinating stuff as always - thanks!!

A few questions though - don't the "instrument formulated" lacquers like Mohawk and McFaddens have extra plasticisers in them to make them more flexible or is it all just "marketing" as you seem to be saying? I have been using pre-cat lacquer and have been trying to get it down to as few coats as possible. Some of the eary instruments I did have checked/cracked in places after about 9 months to a year (almost always on the backs) but I'm not certain if this was because my early efforts had too thick a finish coat - I've now got it down to about 3-4 coats, and I am not buffing out but going for the Lowden hand rubbed (0000 wire wool) finish. The pre-cat lacquers in the UK are nearly all high solids content and the maximum recommended thinning is up to 10% so I am interested to see that you are using 60/40 with pre-cat lacquer and thinner.

Also what do you think of the acid-catalyst lacquers as a guitar finish? I know the finisher that Stefan Sobell has uses this. One downside is that it won't stick well to shellac but I don't know how well it works with an epoxy pore fill.
Last edited by Dave White on Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dave White
[url=http://www.defaoiteguitars.com]De Faoite Stringed Instruments[/url]

User avatar
Arnt
Blackwood
Posts: 134
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:13 am
Location: Trondheim, Norway

Post by Arnt » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:47 am

Very nice tutorial. Thanks for taking the time to do this.

My finishing schedule is similar to yours, but I use nitro. I spray outside, but I have not been able to get away with only two spraying sessions yet, more like 4 or 5. I can't get any of the US brands here, so I use what I can get locally, which is "Saphir Polerlack" from Sweden. I know at least a couple of other builders in these parts who use it too. It is not formulated specifically for instruments, but the guitars and mandolins I have finished with it have held up well, the oldest ones are 8 years old now. Some of them have been through some very rough use, but no checking or any other problems. I suspect this lacquer must be a bit softer than most, like you say the softer the less crack prone.

Even so, the finish will probably deteriorate like other nitro cellulose products given enough time, so I am looking into alternatives. There is always shellac, but it is labour intensive and somewhat fragile. I wish I could get some of that hard shellac that some people seem to be getting such great results with. And catalyzed lacquer; what is it exactly? You probably can’t help me with the local brand names, but what are the characteristics that I should look for? What is it usually used for?
Arnt Rian,
Norway

User avatar
Allen
Blackwood
Posts: 5252
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:39 pm
Location: Cairns, Australia
Contact:

Post by Allen » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:55 am

The catalyzed lacquer that I'm using tells you to thin only 10%, but this is so you get the build that they say you will get from their product. By thinning it more you are controlling how thick of a film build you are putting on. Any time you spray out a very thin product, the surface will wet out very quickly, and you end up with a thin smooth surface. By spraying on 5 coats like this, you are effectively putting on approximately 2 coats the way the manufacturer is recommending.

Catalyzed lacquers are marketed here mostly as a time saver for the furniture industry because of the higher film build. if you use it as they recommend. Also marketed for its superior surface durability. If I was to look for a similar product overseas, then I would check out products that fit those requirements.

I've tried spraying it thinned just 10%, but you just don't get the quality of finish that I'm looking for, but you are out of the spray booth faster.

Mirotone is a local Aussie brand, that is made for the furniture market. We would have a very difficult time getting any product that contains VOC's in them as well, shipped from overseas. I would take some convincing that there would be any benefit to it as well. Just because you hear a lot of chatter about one or two particular brands on the forums, doesn't mean that they are superior in any way. It's just what a few builders are using and getting good results with, so the rest of the crowd starts using it and starts extolling its virtues. Just a human nature type of thing. Since the vast majority of the people on the forums are in the US this is all we hear about, and we are lead to believe that this particular product is superior in every way because they are using it. How do they know. I would bet my very best set of zoot that they haven't used what I'm using, nor am I able to try out what you fellows in Europe are using.

It all comes down to preparation. If you want a thin, high quality finish, the wood has to start out as smooth and flat as possible. You do not want to use your finish as a filler and leveler. This will only force you to apply more finish than you want in an effort to fix flaws that should have been taken care of before you stated to spray.

I'm not a chemistry major, so this is my laymans explanation of what acid catalyzed means. Products like shellac and lacquer harden over time. Shellac takes quit a while for this to happen, could be many months for a French Polished surface to really firm up. This is a slow chemical process that takes place in the presence of oxygen. Adding the right kind of acidic compound will considerably speed up this process, and by blending other components into the finish, they can control all kinds of the finishes characteristics, including enhancing how hard the final surface will be.

The trick with any finish (that goes for shellac, nito, pre-cat, urethane and polyester) is to keep the film build as thin as possible, while still providing the protection that you are seeking. Obviously if you are building a instrument that is going to be handled with the greatest of care, you can put on the thinnest of FP finishes and get away with it. If on the other hand it's going on the road as a pub band instrument, you would want to consider using polyester.

I see nearly everyday finishes on automobiles that are checking and peeling because they have been applied to thick. Also ones coming apart because they are too thin.

The long and short of it is that you need to make sure whatever finish you choose to use, that your surface prep is as perfect as your skills can get it before you start to apply finish. This is a learned skill, and the more you do, the better you will get.
Allen R. McFarlen
https://www.brguitars.com
Facebook
Cairns, Australia

Paul B

Post by Paul B » Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:59 am

When I was talking to the bloke at Durobond he was saying they had added a small amount of plasticiser to their guitar Nitro. Getting just the right amount in there to help prevent checking took a bit of time apparently. Gerard Gilet tested it for them and gave them feedback until they were both happy with it. I also spoke with Daryll at Gilets while I was there picking up some parts and he said pretty much the same thing.

Oh, and hard shellac does contain an additive, but it's not there to help speed the cure. Can't say what it is because Neil wants to protect his IP. He did let slip what it was a few years ago, but I ain't talking :roll:

User avatar
Dave White
Blackwood
Posts: 452
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:10 am
Location: Hughenden Valley, England
Contact:

Post by Dave White » Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:15 am

Allen,

Thanks again for your reply. The reason I was interested in the thinner mixes is that when I first started using the pre-cat I was using 75%/25% lacquer to thinner as per some of the nitro spraying instructions that I had read on forums etc. These are the ones that are cracking - not all over but just in a few small areas - but I suspect it may just be my bad spraying techniques early on. I spend a lot of time prepping and making the wood surfaces as perfect as possible as I have come from doing Tru-oil and FP finishes where this is essential. My finishes now that I do by spraying carefully 3-4 coats undiluted are as thin as the FP ones I do and I am happy with the finish I get. It's just the 9-12 months potential "Russian Roulette" of seeing if these finishes hold up. A bit of a bummer.

I can get the Mohawk "Instrument laquer" here but don't really want to go the nitro route.

Why do they call it finishing - you never do :oops:

I'll just have to get used to the 9 months "pregnant pauses" :D

Thanks again - great thread.
Dave White
[url=http://www.defaoiteguitars.com]De Faoite Stringed Instruments[/url]

User avatar
Allen
Blackwood
Posts: 5252
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:39 pm
Location: Cairns, Australia
Contact:

Post by Allen » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:48 pm

Paul B wrote:When I was talking to the bloke at Durobond he was saying they had added a small amount of plasticiser to their guitar Nitro. Getting just the right amount in there to help prevent checking took a bit of time apparently. Gerard Gilet tested it for them and gave them feedback until they were both happy with it. I also spoke with Daryll at Gilets while I was there picking up some parts and he said pretty much the same thing.
If they are adding a plasticiser, then technically speaking, it's not nitro anymore. They've turned it into an acrylic lacquer, and we're back to my comment about there not being any compelling reason to be using nitro.

This company and Gilets are obviously aware of nitro's shortcomings, and have tried to doctor their product up in order to provide an acceptable finish. We're also back to my comment about marketing crap, this time working closely with a well respected builder to come up with the ideal finish.

Am I cynical about advertising hype? You bet. In the 30+ years I've been in the automotive trade I've heard every line under the sun when it comes to paint. Most of it from people and companies that don't have a clue what they are saying. Just trying to make a sale, because they have a boss thats breathing down their neck to make a sale at any cost.

And when you confront them about some shortcoming of their product it's always the same excuses.
1. You didn't use the product the way it was intended.
2. This is the first time we've ever heard of that happening.
3. We're working on that
4. How about another free can of paint....

At the end of the day, it's what ever works in real world situations, and the conditions that I have to work in.

I'm not sold on any particular product. and I'm not here to tell you what way you should finish your instruments. Excellent results can be obtained with any product. It's just a matter of how you go about it and what you expect from the product. A botched application of the best finish in the world won't make a world class finish, though it had the potential.

Sorry if this sounds like an rant. It was a bloody hot day in the shop today. 37 in the sun, but 43 inside. The first beer didn't even touch the sides.
Allen R. McFarlen
https://www.brguitars.com
Facebook
Cairns, Australia

User avatar
Kim
Admin
Posts: 4376
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:32 pm
Location: South of Perth WA

Post by Kim » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:53 pm

Allen,

When using your drill press, foam applicator set up, you mention a little polish and light to medium pressure. What exactly do you mean by polish? With so many products on the market it can become a little confusing for the uninitiated.

Maguires for instance must have around 20 different lines of this, that, and the other all promising to make a shine like no other and Autoglym and Mothers would not be too far behind with their own bevvy of various brews. I suspect however that most of this, like so much these days, is all piss and wind and nothing more than clever marketing designed only to see the consumer with 13 part used bottles of various concoctions lined up on the shelf ready to do the job of what use to be, and still can be done with only 1 or 2 basic formulations.

Could you please give us all some insight into this aspect of the finishing process. Maybe some brand names and the basic sequence of formulations which you use to get the job done so that the rest of us can avoid over spending, or even worse, ruining work we are essentially happy with to this point of the process.

Thanks for your help M8

Kim

User avatar
Allen
Blackwood
Posts: 5252
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:39 pm
Location: Cairns, Australia
Contact:

Post by Allen » Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:51 pm

No worries Kim;

My products of choice at home for guitar work are Autoglym's 03B (a medium cut that gets most of the work done) and 02B (fine cut that clears up any foggy haze left by the medium cut. I don't need to use a glaze, as it's just used to camouflage poor buffing technique and will die back, leaving you disappointed later on.

At work we use 3M Finesse-It products. Heavy, medium and glaze.

They are both very similar products, and results from both are excellent.

A fine, medium density closed foam pad is the best. Cost is usually $20 - $30 for a pad. Last a long time if you don't abuse them. Also wash them with water when there is some build up on the pad, and always when changing to a finer compound.

As far as speed of the buffer, and pressure on the pad, it's a bit of a balancing act. You are trying to create some friction that will create a bit of heat. This helps to move the peaks that are left when you sand the finish to the valleys. That's because lacquer is a thermoplastic finish that can be reflowed by heat and solvent.

You do not want too much heat though as you'll end up reflowing the lacquer right to the wood, and pulling it in a big smear that will leave you cursing and wanting to through things around. Very easy to do if you catch the edge of the pad, as it's moving so very much faster than towards the center of the pad. So be careful. Also if you get near an edge, the concentrated friction on a small point will do the same. So easy to get careless around the areas of the neck.

I've done this for so long that I don't really think about it any more, but I would have my drill press set on it's medium speed to medium high speed, and perhaps about 3 to 5 pounds pressure on the pad. If you were to do an area of say the buffing pad size on the back, if you feel the surface immediately after you take it away from the pad, it should feel warm to the touch.

Only use a little compound at a time. And continue buffing it until you are left with what looks like a thin oily residue. Don't just put a great wad on and move it about, then wipe it off with a rag.

Also, if you keep in mind that you are using the buffing pad and compound to help you gloss up the finish by moving the peaks of the sand scratch pattern into the valleys, then by paying attention to how the pad is crossing over the way you sanded your finish, you can dramatically cut down the length of time it takes to get the job done. Have the cutting part of the pad crossing the sanding pattern at 90 degrees.

Hope that helps some. If you need some more pointers just ask. Or better yet, stop by and I'll shout you a beer and give you a hands on demo. :D
Allen R. McFarlen
https://www.brguitars.com
Facebook
Cairns, Australia

User avatar
Kim
Admin
Posts: 4376
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:32 pm
Location: South of Perth WA

Post by Kim » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:53 pm

Thanks Allen,

I got a great deal from that and it's so good to have you around to cut through the bullshit.

So if the buffing or polishing process is all about moving the peaks of the sand scratch pattern into the valleys, and if paying attention to how the pad is crossing over the way you sanded your finish allows you to dramatically cut down the length of time it takes to get the job done, it stands to reason that the last grit used in the regime of scratch pattern refinement, say 1200 to 1500 grits, are best not used with a circular motion but rather in a unidirectional motion so one knows best how to work the buff.

Is my assumption correct, or am I making too much of fine point about this process (again) ?

Cheers

Kim

User avatar
Allen
Blackwood
Posts: 5252
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:39 pm
Location: Cairns, Australia
Contact:

Post by Allen » Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:05 pm

I always do that finish sanding uni-directional, but the finer you go, the less of an issue it's going to be. Sort of a trade off. You could sand it up to P2000, but the time that takes, isn't really much of a benefit when buffing lacquer, because it buffs so easily. More of an issue when you're doing 2-pack finishes.
Allen R. McFarlen
https://www.brguitars.com
Facebook
Cairns, Australia

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 28 guests